E-toll bullshit - legal mumbo jumbo..

[336LJ]

anyone here clued up on the legalities of the camera operated tolling systems?
Cause I know its all a money grabbing scam - and they are a private operator.

Queensland Motorways LTD is a company trading for profit as far as I can tell, but does anyone here know what government help they have at their ready to be able to enforce a payment scheme on people without actually having people consider, or sign up to the option of the pricing system - for driving on a fucking public road that we are taxed 3 times for already? (rego, income tax.. and something else I can't think of right now)

Its kind of the same as walking into a bike dealership - and the second you step in the door someone goes "hey thats 50 bucks thanks.. pay now.." you're like.. "THE FUCK MAN".. "Well you walked under my doorway, and we had to get that brand new door mat you used to wipe you're feet - now pay up"

to the best of my knowledge, road upgrades should be paid for from our income tax, and more specifically, "traffic improvement fee" in our rego.

Add to that, the fact that I'm sure the roads are there for tax payers who pay for them to be maintained (regardless of the fact that the private companies have "fixed" them, with a government grant, and are now wanting reimbursment from the public for the improvements without the gov interfering with their operations.
Essentially - the un alienable right to "travel about the lands highways un interfered with, or taxed" (constitution/magna carta/common law rights we all have - dictates that we really only can be put under a set of rules if we give our permission to be ruled by said rules...

I'm trying to find from a legal point of view, exactly how they can DEMAND I pay them, when I can't find anything in the Road Use Traffic Management Act 1995 (the rules we sign our cars and selves up to when we rego a car, or hold a govt issue licence) regarding the enforcement of toll payments by private operators..

I'm fucking fed up with the shit and planning on getting to the bottom of it....

[Zed14]

im pretty sure all the state governments have paid the roads budget to themselves and the only way to get roads built now is to get the big construction companies to fund and build the roads. they then have been given the right to put a toll on these roads so they can get their money back and because they are a business and not a charity are entitled to make a profit like any other business. this is the fault of the state governments not the privateers. they are just doing what you and i would both do if we had the chance. same goes for the companies just upgrading or fixing our roads. the governments put the job out for tender because they have spent all our tax dollars travelling or employing their mates as consultants. only way around this is not to use the toll roads. they have a binding contract with the government which is totally legal. if you feel hard done by how do you think the truck companies and owner drivers go. they are delivering and supplying what the community needs to work with and survive and get charged nearly 3 times what you pay and they have to use these roads because the rta,main roads etc make it illegal to go most other ways.

[JackTar]

If it is anything like Sydney speeding cameras are they will send you a couple of notices then when your ex wife doesn't respond to those or tell you about them they will give your debt to a debt collecting agency and until you have paid it you will have your license suspended so you could well be riding around with no license and not even know about it until you go to get your license renewed and find out that your ex wife is a cunt.

[Jockney Rebel]

a little point of law ,,the minute you sign your name to anything thats govt owned [ie your licence ,cos you dont own it, they do ]
you have just become an entity in the eyes of the law and therefore are bound by all sorts of legal bullshit ,including the phrase "do you understand " which to most of us means do you comprehend ?

in legal terms it means do you stand under me ,or in plain terms will you obey my instructions and /or abide by my wishes ......which you have .... shit i know but there you have it. in order to aviod all this you have to become a virtual hermit and drop out of the system entriely

[bladehunter]

Tolls I got no probs with (least in a car\bike you have a choice).........it's the anal intercourse us guys & gals in NSW get with greenslips & rego

[jakam04]

quote:Originally posted by bladehunter

Tolls I got no probs with (least in a car\bike you have a choice).........it's the anal intercourse us guys & gals in NSW get with greenslips & rego


Dont fret too much.... The way Anna is going, Im thinking a move to NXSW is going to be cheaper than hanging around in a dying state...

[Shadowzone]

The premise behind the toll roads is pretty simple - It is a private road and to use it you must pay for it. Sure the Government owns the Corporation (in this case Qld Motorways) which administer the tolls and collection of them, but if you don't want the toll don't use the road. Or ride around the sensors which trigger the cameras and tolling devices. Look hard enough and you'll see them.

There is another point of Law I'm working on chasing down which is the one whereby it is illegal for the government to force vehicles onto a toll road and charge them the toll ie for trucks running the route from Goodna out through granard road dodging all but the hateway bridge toll. Still a little uncertainty from my barrister on that one so he's still looking into it.

[336LJ]

quote:Originally posted by Zed14

im pretty sure all the state governments have paid the roads budget to themselves and the only way to get roads built now is to get the big construction companies to fund and build the roads. they then have been given the right to put a toll on these roads so they can get their money back and because they are a business and not a charity are entitled to make a profit like any other business. this is the fault of the state governments not the privateers. they are just doing what you and i would both do if we had the chance. same goes for the companies just upgrading or fixing our roads. the governments put the job out for tender because they have spent all our tax dollars travelling or employing their mates as consultants. only way around this is not to use the toll roads. they have a binding contract with the government which is totally legal. if you feel hard done by how do you think the truck companies and owner drivers go. they are delivering and supplying what the community needs to work with and survive and get charged nearly 3 times what you pay and they have to use these roads because the rta,main roads etc make it illegal to go most other ways.


Pretty much nailed it. I'm just trying to make the connection between their dodgy scheme - and the "power to punish" being interchanged between them and the government. For when I stick it back to them and start asking questions and demanding answers.. $7 fucking administration fee.! what a crock of shit!


quote:Originally posted by JackTar

If it is anything like Sydney speeding cameras are they will send you a couple of notices then when your ex wife doesn't respond to those or tell you about them they will give your debt to a debt collecting agency and until you have paid it you will have your license suspended so you could well be riding around with no license and not even know about it until you go to get your license renewed and find out that your ex wife is a cunt.


holy shit man.. What a fucking whore! Guess it pays to change you're address at the transport/government agent asap. That kinda shit happens at my house, but only cause if I get the mail I tend to leave it in the car and vice versa.


quote:Originally posted by Jockney Rebel

a little point of law ,,the minute you sign your name to anything thats govt owned
you have just become an entity in the eyes of the law and therefore are bound by all sorts of legal bullshit ,including the phrase "do you understand " which to most of us means do you comprehend ?

in legal terms it means do you stand under me ,or in plain terms will you obey my instructions and /or abide by my wishes ......which you have .... shit i know but there you have it. in order to aviod all this you have to become a virtual hermit and drop out of the system entriely


Thats pretty much it - The system has been designed so there really is no way around it - you can reclaim ownership of you're property (children, wife, house, dogs, cars, guns etc) hand in you're government issue licence and completely dissasociate yourself from the ENTITY in you're name (that you sign to represent in a court). but you will be under constant harrasment from the police (because they are policy enforcers now - not public officers of the peace - put there by us TO SERVE US)
But you will give up any rights to free healthcare, you won't even be able to get a job. Its fucked.

Alot of police officers (using this example because its more noticable) have no idea of the system they are working for.The ones that do risk losing their jobs or some form of disciplinary action if they speak or act out.

Almost every word in the english language, and specifically the ones used in courts and law - have double meanings.
Example you MUST register you're vehicle - MUST is synonamous with MAY - you MAY register your vehicle to us, and you can keep it as long as you follow our rules. You don't have to register anything to anyone - but when that shit has been pushed in peoples faces over a long period of time people forget.
Birth certificates are the root of it all.


Reminds me of the saying "NONE ARE MORE HOPELESSLY ENSLAVED THAN THOSE WHO FALSELY BELIEVE THEY ARE FREE"


quote:[i]Originally posted by bladehunter

Tolls I got no probs with (least in a car\bike you have a choice).........it's the anal intercourse us guys & gals in NSW get with greenslips & rego

Yeah thats fucked as - I think we pay the most rego out of any state tho - and its going up again. Just when people are barely hanging on and fucking trying to manage - we get the toll increase, some fucking pollution tax they are trying to rob us with - and MORE rego.
Like I'v said before - pisses ya off to know you don't technically have to register you're car or even have a licence to go about your day on the roads - constitutional, common law right I believe. They just don't tell people that.


quote:Originally posted by Shadowzone



The premise behind the toll roads is pretty simple - It is a private road and to use it you must pay for it. Sure the Government owns the Corporation (in this case Qld Motorways) which administer the tolls and collection of them, but if you don't want the toll don't use the road. Or ride around the sensors which trigger the cameras and tolling devices. Look hard enough and you'll see them.

There is another point of Law I'm working on chasing down which is the one whereby it is illegal for the government to force vehicles onto a toll road and charge them the toll ie for trucks running the route from Goodna out through granard road dodging all but the hateway bridge toll. Still a little uncertainty from my barrister on that one so he's still looking into it.


I'd be very interested to hear how that goes mate - I'm struggling to find people around here who are clued up with all this like the guys in the UK - Canada - NZ are - our laws, and most the references they use are completely out of whack with the laws n shit over here. and sometimes mean slightly different things.
Its definately worth digging around for tho. Hopefully I get a response from the guys who have succeeded with this kind of thing before

[Jup]

In what way, shape or form is MAY a synonym for MUST? One is permissive, the other is imperative.

[336LJ]

quote:Originally posted by Jup

In what way, shape or form is MAY a synonym for MUST? One is permissive, the other is imperative.

I'm led to believe this is the case with admiralty law, legalese or something.
The double meanings in words, especially when it comes to laws n shit and what things really mean in legal "tounge", but since I'm not 100% on it, I'm approaching the research from this angle cautiously (why I havn't just been driving an unregistered car to work without a care in the world!)
I have a mate who's digging as deep as he can to find out if this stuff is the real deal. alot of evidence supports it. He's pretty clued up about this since he spent years studying the topic but knows its extremely complicated.
I needa find anyone with experience in this type of field of work that can make it clearer to me about all this shit like, contracts between entities without one side (me) being a part of its consideration/conception.
Power to interchange debt/legal obligation/contract between 2 parties, to a third party without both parties giving consent.
Mainly the link between the private operators, and their ability to act on behalf of the government.

I also got the damn notice 13 days after they say it was issued! the office is in mansfield in bris, how the fuck does it take almost 2 weeks to get to my place!?
[}:)]

[Tony Nitrous]

quote:Originally posted by jakam04

[quote]Originally posted by bladehunter


Dont fret too much.... The way Anna is going, Im thinking a move to NSW is going to be cheaper than hanging around in a dying state...


Civil, Mines, Coal/steel etc are all picking up in Qld
and they are major players in the economy.
We just turned down several major job's.
Housing market is stable, new roads and bridges opening.
Great weather. Got no promblem with Qld myself.

Been to NSW / Sydney a few times this year.
Quite happy to be in Brissy...;)

Life is what you make it.

Tony.J.

[Jup]

Wow LJ, there's so much more to this than I'd have thought!

I'll be watching your investigations unfold with interest.

[336LJ]

quote:Originally posted by Jup

Wow LJ, there's so much more to this than I'd have thought!

I'll be watching your investigations unfold with interest.

Are you using the sarcasm font..? hehe [:p] I can't tell!
You sound pretty ejumacated in the english language so I was hoping that one could be explained in detail to me? or at the least from a legal view - fuck this shit gives me a headache. But you pretty much asked the main question, And its got me wondering exactly what source I can find that can verify wether the two words are infact synonymous when used in the legal system.

I'm only new to all this stuff about what "they don't want you to know" so when something springs to mind I tend to try and find facts that do and don't support it and make my best judgement.
unfortunately most people (like the guys talking about double meanings, legal shit all that stuff that makes me go crosseyed) tend to only produced the evidence that support their claims wether its right or wrong, and leave out evidene that can disprove their claims. I needa know both sides of the story if I can.

It has since been brought to my attention, from someone claiming they know the ins and outs of contract law, that having the sign posts visible, and be choosing to still use the toll road, is acceptance of some form of contract (By conduct?) and I'm in agreement to the terms they set for use of their road. .. basically, its like signing a contract and not even reading anything in smaller print, let alone fine print.


I'm sending them a letter tomoro to ask some questions.

[Jup]

No sarcasm intended mate (out of character I know!) I'm genuinely surprised at the verbal ballet the legal world seems to be employing!

The reason I ask is that, not only did it sound odd, but I searched 'thesaurus.com' and found:


Main Entry: must
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: necessity, essential
Synonyms: charge, commitment, committal, condition, devoir, duty,
fundamental, imperative, necessary, need, obligation, ought,
precondition, prerequisite, requirement, requisite, right, sine qua non

Main Entry: must
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: ought, should
Synonyms: be compelled, be destined, be directed, be doomed,
be driven, be made, be necessitated, be obliged, be one's fate,
be ordered, be required, got to, have, have got to,
have no choice, have to, must needs, need, pushed to the wall


In my opinion (which is certainly not a legal one) the only possible way 'must' can be interpreted as 'may' is if you take the definition of 'must' as 'should' which allows for a permissive form of the word - if it's a verb.

Maybe they're trying to give you a headache to stop you investigating this too far and just make you pay the toll? :D

[uncle pervy]

tolls???? toll bridge, dont you mean troll bridge ala three billy goats gruff
what gets me is, if they are so nessissary (yeah i know its spelt wrong, so fucking what) then why aren't they enacted in all states and territories here in aus. seems you blokes over east are getting shafted.

[336LJ]

quote:Originally posted by Jup

No sarcasm intended mate (out of character I know!) I'm genuinely surprised at the verbal ballet the legal world seems to be employing!

The reason I ask is that, not only did it sound odd, but I searched 'thesaurus.com' and found:


Main Entry: must
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: necessity, essential
Synonyms: charge, commitment, committal, condition, devoir, duty,
fundamental, imperative, necessary, need, obligation, ought,
precondition, prerequisite, requirement, requisite, right, sine qua non

Main Entry: must
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: ought, should
Synonyms: be compelled, be destined, be directed, be doomed,
be driven, be made, be necessitated, be obliged, be one's fate,
be ordered, be required, got to, have, have got to,
have no choice, have to, must needs, need, pushed to the wall


In my opinion (which is certainly not a legal one) the only possible way 'must' can be interpreted as 'may' is if you take the definition of 'must' as 'should' which allows for a permissive form of the word - if it's a verb.

Maybe they're trying to give you a headache to stop you investigating this too far and just make you pay the toll? :D


Aha yeah I'm thinking thats the case, Hopefully I can cause some of THEM a headache with my questions, just finishing up a letter to them.
There are so many ways we get trapped into some form of joinder in a court or any form of legal interaction with corporations and the like, that its almost impossible to say anything in plain english without it unknowingly stripping you of your basic rights and allowing the courts (of proceedure, not justice) have authority over you.

[336LJ]

quote:Originally posted by uncle pervy

tolls???? toll bridge, dont you mean troll bridge ala three billy goats gruff
what gets me is, if they are so nessissary (yeah i know its spelt wrong, so fucking what) then why aren't they enacted in all states and territories here in aus. seems you blokes over east are getting shafted.

there are so many other better and effective ways of funding infrastructure without harvesting cash off us all day long. Its to the point that people, especially business owners have been majorly effected by it.

Its very similar to the monetary price put on driving offences, its pretty much discrimination (for lack of a better word) a $100 fine has worse effects on someone who is financialy disadvantaged, compared to a wealthy individual who spends that much on lunch every day.

[Jup]

quote:Originally posted by 336LJ
Its very similar to the monetary price put on driving offences, its pretty much discrimination (for lack of a better word) a $100 fine has worse effects on someone who is financialy disadvantaged, compared to a wealthy individual who spends that much on lunch every day.


I agree, that's where the points system is fairer IMO - it doesn't matter how easily you can afford a fine, once your points are gone, so is your ticket. I know people who factor the cost of speeding fines into their holidays! [:0]