1216 problems, who has one?

[MTBEERWAH]

Howdy all,
I've got a 1216 in my bandit, and it WILL, not stop pinging!!!!
The head hasn't been shaved, its got both 1989, 1100 gix cams in it, dialled in at 106/108
I built it 2 years ago, and its now driving me nuts, as i really can't ride it anymore,
due to the pinging.. It doesn't have a timing advancer either.

Has anybody else had these kind of problems with a 1216?

I've been on forums all over the world, and nobody else seems to have this problem,
and most have shaved their head, so I'm at a lose to what's going on.

The next step is a dyna 2000, to see if this fixes the problem.

Any thoughts??
Cheers

[geesexar]

you'll never fix the problem mate...sell it cheaply to me...no seriously...no mechanic here...but i'd be looking at advanced timing

[slingy88]

Things that can cause pinging or pre ignition:
CR. What pistons did you use? 13-1 race pistons could cause it even with 98 octane.

Fuel octane rating. Obviously 98 octane is the choice here. Lower octane rating or e10 will cause it.

Ignition timing. Too advanced but stock sho I ld be ok still.

Jetting. Whats been done to tune the engine to the new bore, CR, cam and exhaust settings?

I'd put my money on CR too high and jetting incorrect as nothing else you've changed should effect it.

[MTBEERWAH]

Thery're 11:1 J&E pistons. At 106 intake, got 200psi cranking pressure. I only ever run 98.
With that dial in, it shouldn't be pinging
Its been dynoed 5 times in 2 years. The A/F is as good as its gonna be.
Yesterday, i even tried another CDI. This has made a bit of difference,
but no where near fixing the problem. So....I'm certainly tthinking its an advance problem,
so i think the dyna 2000i, is the next step.

geesexar.....I've had this thing 12 years, and with the amount of money I've chucked at it ,
i'd have to sell it $100 000....ahh...why do we do it??????

[slingy88]

Mmmmmm......(quickly doubles back and grabs money back lol).
Yep, that combo shouldnt ping really like you say. Didnt think bandits run much timing anyway so is still perplexing. What about trying a colder plug? Did you take all the sharp machined edges off the pistons before fitting? They could be causing hot spots and the pinging?
If you want to try the retard theory before investing in dyna ( which personally i wouldnt as they are a power hungry dinosaur and there are other much better options available now) then remove the crank sensor backplate and file the 3 holes into slots. From memory, at that diameter from the crank centre each mm moved at the slotted screw is about 1 deg. You want to slot the holes to move the sensor in a clockwise direction to retard. As long as you only slot the one way, you can always easily go back to factory timing because one end of the slot is your factory hole still. This isnt obviously a permanent solution as your reducing your cranking timing and everthing else but as bike engines generally get all the timing in by about 2500rpm you just want to see if reducing the overall timing has an effect on the pinging under load.
Just a thought.

[MTBEERWAH]

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing with the retarding.

Ok, i'm out of the loop...what other systems are there, on the basis of the dyna systems?

I know i want one like the dyna 2000 I, which is totally programmable, so you can upload your own map.

PS. I've been thinking about the fine matter thing, that may still be there, that can cause hot spots, and cause pinging.
I think i got it all, but now i'm just head fucking myself, thinking, did i get all.

[slingy88]

Alot of guys in the uk are using this one know.

http://ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/tcip/tcip.htm

Cheaper than dyna, uses the factory crank pick up and wheel can use a tps or map sensor for propper 3D mapping of the ignition.

[Yella]

I would be looking at the A/F ratio but you said that is good. Just out of curiosity what is it at?

[MTBEERWAH]

You'll never get them perfect, when you start playing with airbox mods.
With an open airbox, it has an average of 12.7.
Its got a stage 2 open airbox Holeshot kit in it.
17 pilots, Holeshot needle on 3rd clip, running 147.5 Mains.
It rides and fuels very nicely, but pings like a bitch!!

[Yella]

What heat range plugs are you running?

[Yella]

What do they look like when you pull them out?

[MTBEERWAH]

I haven`t tried changing the heat range yet, but will give that ago this week, so right now, I`m still running 9`s.
I`ll give 10`s ago and see what happens.

Funny thing with the colour...as I`ve been experimenting with tune constantly over the last 2 years,
different cams, different cam dial in`s, different jet and airbox settings, and then also different exhaust systems, from full systems to changing the Can, for variation in brands and lengths...I`ve just pulled off my full Hindle system, which when the plugs are checked, they`re a nice colour.
But have now just tried going back to the OEM header, and a yosh slip on..
Its now increased the bottom and mid range torque "beyond" what I expected(I know this will do this in a logical sense, and affect top end, as its done) but has made the plugs look a little hot, which I didn`t expect, as I thought it would, without changing jetting to suit the now more restricted flow, be richer, so I found that a bit strange.
All this hasn`t made any difference to the pinging, its still the same characteristics.

I`ll get some 10`s tomorrow, and see how it goes.

[Yella]

As a side note, I have a mate with a 7/12 that is potentially looking for an exhaust system ( he is currently running the 750) if you are up for sell one let me know and I will pass on the detail

[MTBEERWAH]

No probs mate.
I'm not real sure what i want to do with the hindle yet.
I am thinking of getting a custom system built.
The hindle doesn't suit my set up. Great up top...Shit down low.

[GammaBoy]

is it pinging? Or is it an exhaust leak?
What's changed since it didn't ping?

[MTBEERWAH]

Nahh....she's pinging alright.
Anything under 3500, and it wants blow up.
You have to feather the throttle, up to 3500, then, you can torque it away.
Its always done it, hence the constant 2 years of a state of tune,
and its still fucking with my head.

[slingy88]

I thought pinging was load and heat related generally? If it goes away after 3500rpm and while pulling hard it may not be pinging but something that sounds like it. Issue with the PAIRS system after the rebore maybe? I have some nice stainless lazercut blanking plates if you need them?

[MTBEERWAH]

I thought pinging was load and heat related generally? If it goes away after 3500rpm and while pulling hard it may not be pinging but something that sounds like it. Issue with the PAIRS system after the rebore maybe? I have some nice stainless lazercut blanking plates if you need them?

Yeah, that's correct. I can`t load it up under 3500 due to pinging, so you have to feather, and feed the throttle, very gingerly, so it doesn`t load and scream in pain. I don`t mean excessive loading either, in a damaging way. That kind of behaviour is bad for any engine. I should, in this configuration, be able to start to roll and feed the power from 2500, with out a glitch, as if just under normal acceleration, from a stand still, but it wont accept this.

Not like my other nearly stock Bandit, that you can smack from word go, and delivers faultlessly, with no gripes.

PAIRS...ha ha, that paper weight got binned a long time ago.

[Hagarr]

Sounds like you've changed pretty much all you can change without going major.

my 2c! Cylinder pressure is high.

i run 1216 GSXR M with stock (Twin Lobe) cams and don't experience any pinging whether on Avgas or 98 but from memory, I haven't done a static test for a while, my cylinder pressures aren't as high which might indicate you have higher than 11:1 compression.

My GSXR (1216) will stand up under own steam in first with full kit of fairings fitted and running 17 x 43 gearing and still pulls from 5th gear at 40 k's to end of clock (92 ft/lb's torque) so yeah my opinion cylinder pressures way too high.

You could also go for longer duration cams this will lower cyl pressure at the detriment of some torque, might help.

[MTBEERWAH]

If anything, yours should have higher cylinder pressure.

In standard form, the Bandit engine is 9.5:1. With the 11:1 J&E pistons in the Bandit, its supposed to work out to be around 10.8:1 Then I`ve got the cams dialled to 106/108. These pistons are definitely 11:1.

What`s the GSX R comp standard..I thought they were around 10:1, plus with the cams set at standard???? I thought the gix intake was 104, and the exhaust was 103??? you`ll have to correct me there, so by that, your cylinder pressure should be higher?

I don`t know what`s going.... apart from stripping it, and starting from scratch, orrr, its an ignition prob.....

[Hagarr]

Ah forgot one point, I have 40mm carbs with filters (no airbox) 145 Mains, can't remember pilots.

'89 on GSXR list (Hot type) JR10B (STD) JR9B I've always used JR9B's with no issue

Cylinder pressure 1989 on -(std) 170-199

What about advancing the cam timing? It's ok to list the numbers of the cam but if it's not opening the Inlet valve until around 15 BTDC you may be able to open this up 5+.

You might lose bottom end once again but what you lose at bottom you'll gain up top!

[MTBEERWAH]

Yeah....I built this thing to be a torque monster, and for me, its that low to mid range thing, that gets my juices flowing.

I don`t want the big end rush, but have had to set the cams as they are now, to try and fix the problem.
I want to be able to short shift, and torque out of corners in the twisties.

I did have 102/104, and this made 215 cranking psi. Obviously this didn`t help pinging, but had really good torque.
While in this state, a couple of times only, it behaved, and short shifting at 5500rpm, with standard gearing, picked the front up in 3rd gear, but this was only a couple of freak times when it actually worked.

The head has also been flowed, but still running standard valve size.

Some one has suggested to skim the pistons, to bring the pressure down, but there`s plenty out there with this same set up, or even higher comp, milling the head a bit running great, so this is the head fuck.

A standard 1200 Bandit is up to 180-185 psi.

[Hagarr]

FYI I've just fitted stick coils to a slabby I'm building out of spares and works a treat.

just saying in case you were thinking about ignition, perhaps stick coils might have some more oomph??

just youtube it, shows you part #'s and how to do, very easy!

[MTBEERWAH]

Cheers mate, I`ll look at that. Sounds like a positive thing to try.
I just put some 10`s (plugs) in today, and it has made a bit of a difference.

[GammaBoy]

Put a ignitech or Zeel on it, knock a bunch of ignition timing out of it in that sub 3500rpm window. Should also make it easier to start.
Or wind a little more overlap into the cams.

[slingy88]

Bike engines hit max advance before 3500 anyway so may as well just slot the pickup backplate and just dial back the timing by 3 deg or so. 1/2 an hour and a small round file will get you the same result for 0 money

[GammaBoy]

Bike engines hit max advance before 3500 anyway so may as well just slot the pickup backplate and just dial back the timing by 3 deg or so. 1/2 an hour and a small round file will get you the same result for 0 money
No, it won't. What you're describing reduces the timing across the whole rev range. What you want is to change the advance curve so that it doesn't hit max advance till after 3500.

Having a bike with an oldskool mechanical bob-weight advance system, I've modified mine to increase the amount of advance due to the bobweights and increase the rpm that max advance is achieved at, but have it timed to give the same total advance - result is no pinging down low and easier starting.
If/When I move to a programmable box, i'll be keeping the advance numbers low below ~3-3500rpm.

[slingy88]

I see where your coming from now. Slotting the backplate isnt optimal but it would be a quick way to prove if reducing timing is going to help the situation.

[latheboy]

At what rev's does the carby move from the pilots to the main jets?
Could you be running it far to lean on the pilots.

Does it sneeze at idle?

[MTBEERWAH]

At what rev's does the carby move from the pilots to the main jets?
Could you be running it far to lean on the pilots.

Does it sneeze at idle?

Hi mate,
Nah...it fuels nicely. I`ve increased the pilots to suit the jet kit, and A/F through out the rev range is pretty good, as per the multiple dyno`s its had.

Its either C/R, or ignition control, but the C/R is just over 10.5:1, so i can`t see that being the issue...I think....

[latheboy]

I ask because when doing a dyno run the revs are usually up in the rev range for the start of the run.
So it might be starting the run after 3500 RPM where it comes good.

Has the AFR been checked at idle?

My bike was running great as soon as it come on the main jets, but the idle AFR was 17:1 and was lean sneezing... easy fix for me but it's something to look at.

My stock engine with boost has a CR of 10.8:1 and no pinning issues.

Is the CDI for the bandit or 1152 or 1127 or 750
All will have different ign curves in them and red line.

[Hagarr]

Is the CDI for the bandit or 1152 or 1127 or 750
All will have different ign curves in them and red line.

Good point!

[MTBEERWAH]

Its a Bandit CDI, on Bandit.
The idle is about 14.5, I can`t remember the exact figure, and at the transition onto the needle, goes to high 12`s, then dips down to low 11`s at mid range, then on the main jet, goes back to high 12`s
I have just tried another Bandit CDI. I did this last week...The two CDI`s are definitely different in characteristics... although they are for the same bike. Putting the donah CDI on seems to have lessened the effect of pinging, and it doesn`t seem to be as punchy down low, as though they are different maps.

[Hagarr]

What are the Model numbers of each CDI unit?

[MTBEERWAH]

I can`t tell you what donah one is, as its on the bike, and tucked away behind fairing.(you have to pull the whole rear end off to get to it. PAIN IN THE ARSE)

The original one from the bike is 131800-8050. Mines an 03, but the build date is OCT 02. This model, and the next, early 04 sale date, Suzuki decided to changed the CDI`s....why...who knows, but they`re smaller units, compared to all the other models, and not interchangeable, with the other models...unless you change the plug, as its different also.

The one on the bike now,is for an 04, so the numbers are a little different, but essentially the same unit.
They then went back to the bigger units, to finish off the Gen2 series. These are the same which can be found in the Gen1`s

[Shadowzone]

How are your valves? Is one burnt? Im guessing you dont want to pull the lid off to check again, but if its not that it could also be a failing head gasket (had that on a 265 Hemi once).

[MTBEERWAH]

How are your valves? Is one burnt? Im guessing you dont want to pull the lid off to check again, but if its not that it could also be a failing head gasket (had that on a 265 Hemi once).

Shouldn't be.
Its only got 20 000k's since full rebuild.
Valves were set at new..again at 1000...then at 6000....then at 12 000,
and then lastly at 18 000. This has all been done while changing cams,
and cam dial in. It holds pressure on all cylinders, so they seal well.

[GammaBoy]

Put a programmable ignition box on it and be happy. If it's always done it since you built it, the ignition curve is up the shit.

[MTBEERWAH]

Just an update for anyone who cares or interested.....

I seem to have fixed the problem totally.

The biggest contributor in fixing the problem was going to the colder plug. I then slightly richened the mixture screw, only 1/4 of a turn out, this combined with the cold plug, and has stopped the bastard ping.

Thanks all for help and suggestions.

There`s no way I thought that by changing the plug, would help fix this, as it was a major major ping, like someone had a jack hammer, smashing away, in an uncontrollable fashion.

So...happy days!!!!!!!

[MTBEERWAH]

7807

I came across this bit of literature.

[Gix11]

Great info! Thanks mate, I love threads where problems get fixed and documented. Cheers mate.