Power comanders

[TurboKat]

I'm after some hard facts about the Dynojet PC III USB from people who have actual experience with them.

I'm looking for dyno documented before & after results, not interested in "My bike had one fitted when I bought it & it went real fast" or "My mate put one on & he reckoned it was heaps better"

Specifically, I need to know if there is a appreciable gain to be had from just adjusting the fuel map or do you really need the add on ignition module to get decent improvements? I've just put a full Hindle system on so
I'd like to be able to override the factory programmed settings to utilise the extra gas flow & make the power delivery more aggressive - I know the Japanese manufacturers set the standard timing & fuel curves to minimise emissions, reduce harmonics, dull hard acceleration, etc. so I'm sure there's some room to fire things up a bit - '
& yes, I know I will need to have it custom mapped on a dyno.

I can't tell you what sort of bike it's for because then Large will find out & I'm counting on the element of surprise to help me beat him & his ZX12 at the drags this December. ;)

[El_Hefty]

Ahh Turbocunt ill tell you a little story about a mates mate who had one once on his vespa... :p

Ive recently put on 2 and had them both dynoed with before and after printouts, they are at work, ill confirm the numbers then but ill fill you in now.

First was one of the TLs, changed from stock headers with yosh to a full yosh titanium system and a pc3. By memory the pickup before and after mapping the pc3 was 4hp and a minor improvement in torque (numbers to be confirmed)

The GSX1400 i had the full Acro system on for a while but had a 'mapped pc3' i got from another 1400 owner.
It turned out it didnt have a map on it at all and with the before and after i got circa 10hp runs much smoother no popping farting etc on overrun.

Ill post the printouts on Monday for you to get a little woody over.

Now fuck off with the serious questions the 'taxis' are racing

[EVLZX]

What bike's it for?
Is there a reason you want a PCIII and not a PCV?

I can't give you dyno numbers sorry (had a guy send me a map designed to my specs, soon I'll have the auto tune module installed, I'll eventually make it to a dyno, one day), but for what it's worth once I got a decent map on the PCV on the ZX14 I could feel the rear wheel breaking traction at 100 or so (Pirelli Diablo Rosso Corsa) just felt more powerful all over and smoother, mine pops still atm but it's got all the octopus still installed (KLEEN system).

Anyway this is probably exactly what you didn't want to know.

[EVLZX]

Oops bike's top secret okay.

[TurboKat]

dynoed with before and after printouts, they are at work,

(numbers to be confirmed)

Ill post the printouts on Monday

No good, I need to know RIGHT NOW so fuck the family sedans, get your beer swilling, party pie eating arse off the couch & go to work RIGHT FUCKING NOW & get the shit for me... there's a good lad.

[ozzy1100]

you have the best people skills tk lol

[TurboKat]

Should I have put this ;) on the end?

[ozzy1100]

na fuck em lol

[Tony Nitrous]

Well you haven't bought a B-King or Gen2 Busa then,
as the stock ECU can be re-mapped and restrictions
removed beyond anything a Powercommander can do.

[Tony Nitrous]

The GSX1400 i had the full Acro system on for a while but had a 'mapped pc3' i got from another 1400 owner.
It turned out it didnt have a map on it at all and with the before and after i got circa 10hp runs much smoother no popping farting etc on overrun.


Did you remove the "Clean Air" crap and blank off the cam cover ?

[oldskool]

TK you can download different maps from Dynojet to match pipe, air box mods, sea level etc.
I used the disk that came with the PC3 to sync with the net to get the maps list so you may need such a disk.
There was a sizeable list last time I did the download from Dynojet, be it a wile ago now.

[El_Hefty]

Did you remove the "Clean Air" crap and blank off the cam cover ?

nope not yet just the exhaust a k&n and the pc3 i have the ignition advancer cog the pairs blockoff plate but i havnt bothered yet...

Hey Turbocunt no worries im going to work right now for youse, but as you know my restrictive girth slows me down, i reckon i should get there sometime between 8 and 10 tomorrow morning

[Dynomutt]

All a power commander is really for is to adjust the air/fuel ratio to suit whatever filter/exhaust modifications you have carried out. Think of it as an electronic jet kit. You will pick up a little power simply by ensuring that the A/F ratio is correct, but if you want bigger gains then you will only see that from fitting a full system and free flowing filter.
I have set up many powercommanders on my Dynojet dyno, and the number of people who bring a bke in expecting a huge power gain outnumber those who understand what a power commander is really doing.

Fitting a power commander will allow you to tweak the fueling through the entire rev range, and ensure that it is running at its best. Even some standard machines can be running rich or lean. I recently ran a friends GSXR750K3 on my dyno the bike was totally stock and it ran very rich. Simply by fitting a can the bike picked up 8bhp as the can helped lean the fueling out a little. Fitting a Pipercross filter will lean it out a little more, and then we will fit a PCIIIusb so that I can then map the rest of it correctly.

With the Hindle system you will likely find that the bike is slightly rich at higher rpms, and leaner around the 4Krpm to 6Krpm mark, as this is where the manufacturer tends to lean things out for the emissions testing. If you haven't blanked off the clean air system then do so, it will show a falsely lean condition by around 1 point on the AFR trace across the whole range, so remove it and blank it.
Ideally modify your airbox so that you are getting as much air as possible into the engine, and then map accordingly to correct the AFR.
I usually start with a generic downloadable map that is the closest to what I want and then modify it to suit, although in some cases the generic maps are nowhere near and I start from a zero map and build it from there.

[StuNVA]

I put a PC111 on my GSXR1000K5, it made bugger all difference to me, it was dyno tuned and was running as it should be for the setup I had but as for hp gain and Nm gain my butt told me it was no different, I had the charts but can't find them now, it gained 8hp and about 5ftlb from memory.

Tuono used to hunt on the highway, I put on a PC5 and Auto tune, it cleaned the fueling up nicely and made power delivery smoother, made no difference to my 1/8th mile times. It felt much better to ride.

Hayabusa just fitted a PC111, it has cleaned up the fueling around the lower rev range thus making the bike easier to ride around town and stopping it from being snatchy on the highway, it feels much faster but I will not be able to compare 1/8th mile times for before and after until Nov.

[80s freak]

PCV is a big improvement over the 3. Speak to the boys at Redline motorcycles in Dandy about tuning it. The maps you can download from the Dynojet website are very conservative so that they don't get sued for making a bike run lean. Also put a K&N or BMC filter in it otherwise all your going to do is loose bottom end, put a hole in the mid range and only get a small if any increase in top end.

[TurboKat]

All a power commander is really for is to adjust the air/fuel ratio to suit whatever filter/exhaust modifications you have carried out. Think of it as an electronic jet kit. You will pick up a little power simply by ensuring that the A/F ratio is correct, but if you want bigger gains then you will only see that from fitting a full system and free flowing filter.
I have set up many powercommanders on my Dynojet dyno, and the number of people who bring a bke in expecting a huge power gain outnumber those who understand what a power commander is really doing.

Fitting a power commander will allow you to tweak the fueling through the entire rev range, and ensure that it is running at its best. Even some standard machines can be running rich or lean. I recently ran a friends GSXR750K3 on my dyno the bike was totally stock and it ran very rich. Simply by fitting a can the bike picked up 8bhp as the can helped lean the fueling out a little. Fitting a Pipercross filter will lean it out a little more, and then we will fit a PCIIIusb so that I can then map the rest of it correctly.

With the Hindle system you will likely find that the bike is slightly rich at higher rpms, and leaner around the 4Krpm to 6Krpm mark, as this is where the manufacturer tends to lean things out for the emissions testing. If you haven't blanked off the clean air system then do so, it will show a falsely lean condition by around 1 point on the AFR trace across the whole range, so remove it and blank it.
Ideally modify your airbox so that you are getting as much air as possible into the engine, and then map accordingly to correct the AFR.
I usually start with a generic downloadable map that is the closest to what I want and then modify it to suit, although in some cases the generic maps are nowhere near and I start from a zero map and build it from there.
Thanx mate, I was hoping you'd post here, you seem to be the man in the know with this sort of caper.
I'll shoot you a PM, hopefully you've had some experience with my particular make/model of bike & can steer me in the right direction.

[TurboKat]

PCV is a big improvement over the 3. Speak to the boys at Redline motorcycles in Dandy about tuning it. The maps you can download from the Dynojet website are very conservative so that they don't get sued for making a bike run lean. Also put a K&N or BMC filter in it otherwise all your going to do is loose bottom end, put a hole in the mid range and only get a small if any increase in top end.
The V isn't available for my bike Geoff, bummer because I like the idea of the autotune.
I def. won't be putting a K&N anywhere near it, typically for K&N they have 15-20% less surface area than the stock filter! How is it that you can sell an airfilter as 'High Performance' when it's a lot more restrictive that the stocker?
The trouble is, heaps of their filters are like that, marketing is an amazing thing.

[El_Hefty]

Ok got my pie eating ass to work just for you TK and the results are in

TL = 1.82 hp & 3.02 ft-lbs of torque thats at maximum power, at 7000rpm there was an improvement of just on 5hp and 4.5 ft-lbs of torque (max torque reached at 7k of 77.47)

1400 = 9.67 hp & he couldnt be fucked on that day with a torque reading apparently

the big difference in the before and afters is the power curve has been made quiet a bit smoother

[TurboKat]

You're a white man Mike, thanks a lot for that.
Do your dyno printouts have an A/F trace on them? I'm interested to know what he was tuning them to & how linear they ended up.

[Tony Nitrous]

1400 = 9.67 hp & he couldnt be fucked on that day with a torque reading apparently


If you have the hp printout, dont the hp and torque always cross
at 5252 rpm ? It should be pretty healthy and awake by then.

(I could be wrong... again.)

[latheboy]

Ok got my pie eating ass to work just for you TK and the results are in

TL = 1.82 hp & 3.02 ft-lbs of torque thats at maximum power, at 7000rpm there was an improvement of just on 5hp and 4.5 ft-lbs of torque (max torque reached at 7k of 77.47)

1400 = 9.67 hp & he couldnt be fucked on that day with a torque reading apparently

the big difference in the before and afters is the power curve has been made quiet a bit smoother

Just for my interest, how much did the TL make total?
Total for the 1400?

and what's the cost of the PC3

As an alternative you should have a look at "Bike Interceptor" http://www.bikeinterceptor.com/

[El_Hefty]

Latheboy
TL was 121hp total and the 1400 was 124. .. i dont take much from that though. As you well know the resulting figures have too many viariables

TK yeah there is a A-F ratio graph of before and after on both printouts the difference being much greater on the 14 ... Ill see if i can scan them and stick them up.

Tony, they might!? dont know ill see if these can be copied for reference

[El_Hefty]

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w438/elhefty/dyno3.jpg

1400 HP graph with air fuel below, red being after mapping

http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w438/elhefty/dyno2.jpg

TL torque curve with Air Fuel underneath

Ibone pics so its as good as it gets TK , at least i wiped off the sauce before i took the pics

[TurboKat]

Sauce ruins pies ! :mad:
The 1400 printout is a thing of beauty, musta been like a baby's bum to ride.
Can't make out the numbers in the pics, what's the A/F ratio?

[El_Hefty]

13.4 is ideal its the dotted line, above that the next line on the graph is 15 - 1 ie lean, you can see by the 1400 graph from about 6k onwards it was leaning out getting to 15-1 which shows up quite clearly in the power curve as the rough as guts section. Yes it was night and day to ride but also evidence that as soon as i put the exhaust on, which the 14's revel in, i should of had the pc3 on and tuned

The TL graph, well its a TL, im surprised it started and ran long enough for a decent dyno run, finicky thing they are

[Tony Nitrous]

Who did you use Mike ?

My Busa was on at 159, King at 163, but that was a while back and
on two different dyno's. The powercommander was set up on my 14
with a dyno not a pre-made map and the last owner claimed 120.

14 run's out of top end at speed but has huge grunt off the line,
not sure how much of that is down to its being geared down as well.

Im very cautious of Dyno figures, but I would like to run mine
back to back one day to see how the hp / torque compares.

[El_Hefty]

Fred at pro cycle dyno, hes on the service road at Springwood 500m from one of my business's so its a drop in spot for me. Nice guy and he's done a bit of work for me.

Runs big block old school suzuki drag bike so he gets points for that Ran a bike for Trevor Birrell at one stage too i believe

website = http://www.procycledyno.com.au/about

[Tony Nitrous]

Hopefully at sometime the B-King will go back on the dyno,
probabley Pete's Pitstop as he's highly recommended by Busa owners
who "flash" their ECU's. He can remove the restrictions at the same time.

This was the B-Kings A/F back in 08 ......
Motor was new, low K's and its had can's since,
be interesting to see if its loosened up any.

http://imageshack.us/a/img202/9709/dyno2.jpg

Sorry for the thread drift Mr TurboKat.....:(

[El_Hefty]

as for the 'cautious of dynos' yeah your well served to be, theres guys who can use them guys who cant, guys who will manipulate before and afters for their gain etc etc and then theres the dyno itself... as i posted too many variables

[Tony Nitrous]

When my Kat got rebuilt one winter in the UK,
a friend offered to run it on his dyno for me.
I mentioned that I would probably sell it when I emigrated.
He said "No problem, do you want me to make it look REAL good?"

[Hagarr]

Thats about the same as mine used to be as well Tony, almost identical.

Guy had a Busa on the same Dyno same day but with ECUE and a yoshi and was 181 RWHP so I was a bit surprised how much the King was down on the Busa.

Mate (Paul -Chain reaction Motorcycles) with Dyno seemed to think the larger Airbox of the Busa and the Yoshi do make quite a bit of difference.

I should find out shortly how much.

Paul tunes for rideability and longevity not for outright HP though.

Now I have done inlet mods and Yoshi it will be interesting to see the changes.


as for the 'catious of dynos' yeah your well served to be, theres guys who can use them guys who cant, guys who will manipulate before and afters for their gain etc etc and then theres the dyno itself... as i posted too many variables

[Dynomutt]

If you have a fuel injected Suzuki, then there is also the Healtech fueling computer, which is half the price of a PCIIIusb, and is easier to work with. i'm about to fit and map one to a mates GSXR1000K4. They retail for around £180 in the UK, available from Bikers discount store. I have not used one yet, but a friend of mine Tim Blakemore (Tim Blakemore Racing) has reccommended them, so following a conversation with him I am going to install one on this K4 and also a 750K3. They are only currently available for Suzuki FI bikes, and are a simple plug and play, they are also not model specific so you can swap between bikes should you need to.

[MONO]

I def. won't be putting a K&N anywhere near it, typically for K&N they have 15-20% less surface area than the stock filter! How is it that you can sell an airfilter as 'High Performance' when it's a lot more restrictive that the stocker?
The trouble is, heaps of their filters are like that, marketing is an amazing thing.

This was my thoughts too TK ...But this is an interesting watch.
So not to be called a pie eating thread hacker I started a new thread :D

http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/showthread.php?24522-K-amp-N-FILTERS-the-myths-and-truths-dating-back-to-1976&p=370990#post370990

[latheboy]

as for the 'cautious of dynos' yeah your well served to be, theres guys who can use them guys who cant, guys who will manipulate before and afters for their gain etc etc and then theres the dyno itself... as i posted too many variables

This is very true, I has seen a guy do a before dyno run at 3/4 throttle.
Then after the changes ( I don't remember what they were) he did a WOT run on the dyno.
And fuck me it made shit loads more after the changes ;)

I can't use names or brand of dyno, but I'm sure there are lots of dodgy people doing the same thing.

Also, My dyno will give you a different number to the next brand of dyno.
If you do any tuning, USE the dyno you have used before the tuning or parts change. That way you will get a referance
to see if you're gaining or losing power.

And for gods sake, don't EVER use a Dyno without the AFR hooked up.

[latheboy]

[QUOTE=Dynomutt;370969] then there is also the Healtech fueling computerQUOTE]

"Healtech" or Haltech?

Haltech would be a good choice too. http://www.haltech.com/

[Dynomutt]

It's Healtech, I'm about to fit one on a GSXR1000K4 and a GSXR750K3 so i'll let you know w hat they're like to use. My friend Tim Blakemore has reccomended them to me, and I trust Tims advice.
As has been said earlier for any engine work always use the same dyno, or at least the same brand of dyno. All the dynojet dynos should read within 1% of each other. always use the same correction factor when comparing results, and if a dyno operator gives you an uncorrected graph then don't go back there.
It is possible to fudge things with a dyno, but not to give more than a few ponies difference overall.
A dyno is a tool, and is only as good as the person operating it, any monkey can produce a dyno graph, it is knowing how to interpret the results and make the required adjustments to the fueling

[oldskool]

If its a Suzuki all you need is a Teka no need for any on board dudads.
http://www.factorypro.com/Teka_SFI_2/TEKA_Suz_SFI_2_procedure.html

[El_Hefty]

How much Dylan best i can find is $700 bare bones meaning more possibly? also doesnt work on all Suzukis

heres the list of bikes it works on

gsxr 600, 01-07
gsxr 750, 98-07
gsxr1000, 01-07
gsx1300r Busa, all years
sv650, 03-07
sv1000, 03-07
TL1000r, all years
TL1000s, all years
DL's all years
Boulevards
M109r

pretty limited list really, im reading about it and they say dont tune by AF ratio? WTF why not how? That bit i dont understand. Anyway cant really see a benefit for moi Dylan i must be missing something ... Designed to tune typical "pipe, air filter (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/Car-Truck-Parts-/6030/i.html?_nkw=Air+Filter), stacks, ignition advancer" bikes. Engine modified bikes, or bikes with "the secondaries removed" will develop "mixture humps" that may require a "mappable" device. ie a PC3....., From reading it i cant see how it would have smoothed out my power curve on the 1400 like the pc3 did

Considering my pc3's only cost in the 300's and both require dyno tuning i dont see how you could be ahead unless of course its someone in your position working on bikes all day every day and selling it as part of a dyno tune service

[Dynomutt]

I prefer to use a piggyback fueling device rather than remapping the OEM ECU. I've just ordered the Healtech FI computer today, so when it arrives I'll be getting the 1000K4 up for mapping so I'll let you know how it goes. The Healtech is much cheaper than the PCIIIusb, and I can supply, fit, and map a healtech for the same as just supplying the PCIIIusb.

[StuNVA]

You can pick up PC111 's off ebay or the net second hand for half the price of a new unit, the one I got for the Busa was second hand, the PC fitted and dyno'd set me back about $500.

[EVLZX]

PCV & Auto Tune set me back about $400 Brand New, decent base map $50.
Dyno? Why?

[latheboy]

PCV & Auto Tune set me back about $400 Brand New, decent base map $50.
Dyno? Why?

Are you kidding?

How do you know it's a decent map base?

Do you think that a map that is made for someone elses bike will be prefect for yours?

[EVLZX]

Ordered over the net to my specifications temp alti mods riding etc, decent not perfect but that's what the AT is for. And it's a world apart from the rough as shit power commander supplied maps.

[latheboy]

Ok, that's nice.

But how do you know it's better than before?

I have seen quite a few cars and bikes with some hot up parts that sound louder so must be fast, even though they make less power and the fueling is up the shit.

You might be lucky but i'd still get it checked on a dyno, that is one of the reasons they where built in the first place.

[EVLZX]

It's nothing to do with louder, that's rather irrelevant (although it is a bit too loud).
Delivery is much smoother all through the rev range, km/l is reasonable, exhaust doesn't smell like the fuel tank, more power all over.
Other 14's running this guys maps usually get no more than a few more hp after dynoing.

[EVLZX]

How do I know the dyno op knows what he's doing and isn't going to try and fudge the figures?

[latheboy]

It's not so much about power or torque, more about the AFR.

If the fuel is too lean or too rich you will damage your motor.

[EVLZX]

That's why I'm waiting for the ti bung so I can install and set the auto tune up :) and get the AFR right on.

In saying that there have been no complaints about the AFR on these maps, and the guy relies upon word of mouth (and his maps came highly recommended).

Also he was great to deal with, full of advice and more than happy to answer my questions, and asked plenty of questions.

Either way a dyno built map is not going to accurately take into account the ram air effect.

[latheboy]

Ok, I wish you all the best... Good luck

[Dynomutt]

Either way a dyno built map is not going to accurately take into account the ram air effect.

If you place a pressure guage into the airbox, you will see that the pressure increase due to the ramair is negligable. You are looking at less than 1 psi average at full speed.
Generic downloadable maps are built from running a number of different bikes with the same exhaust and filter combo which are then mapped individually. An average of the map values are then taken which becomes the generic downloadable map. some bbikes will be fairly accurate, but some bikes will be out by a noticable amount.
Having a map constructed specifically for your machine and its modifications isthe only way to ensure that the fueling is correct.
As for the dyno operator fudging the results, if you are mapping correctly to AFR then the results will be what they are regardless of whether the operator tries to fudge the power figures. Any fudge is likely to be only a couple of bhp, you're not going to get another 10 or 15bhp showing.

[hooligan]

. Any fudge is likely to be only a couple of bhp, you're not going to get another 10 or 15bhp showing.

i don't know about that. on the dyno my 711 was tuned on, it showed 131, at a dyno day i got bragging rights with 152.

[Tony Nitrous]

Any fudge is likely to be only a couple of bhp, you're not going to get another 10 or 15bhp showing.

Seen a few lose or gain more than 10hp.
Queenslanders might remember the figures at the Gold Coast Bike Week a while back ?
and the mobile Dyno at Casino was waaaay different to what several folk had seem previously.

[latheboy]

Different brands give you different numbers .. we measure at the wheel whereas a different brand will tell you crank figures....
Use the same dyno every time and you will see your gains or losses

[80s freak]

On a Dynojet dyno you can alter the air pressure to change the HP figure. Most dyno guys I have dealt with are genuine enthusiasts and want to get people's bikes to the best states of tune they can. Actual power figures are irrelevant to a good operator.

[Dynomutt]

You cannot alter the air pressure on a Dynojet dyno. the barometric pressure is whatever is measured during the run by the sensor module in the stack, as is the humidity and temperature. The only enviromental variable that can be altered by the operator is the altitude, this will create a small variance, but you would have to set the altitude so high that it would be obvious