This will get you going...... The last word... ish

[BillyWhizz888]

After many many e-mails, phone calls and letters
I STILL DONT HAVE AN ANSWER.......

What AS standard applies to welding or repairs of motorcycle frames
What weld procedures are used
What welding tests do the wleders have to take
What NDT is done (Non Destructive Testing)
What tests are required on frame building
What specification does the above conform to

What is the standard the vehicle is examined to

Now seeing as I have contacted Dotars, DPI, Tafe's Uni's blah blah blah

whats the crack, Jack :-)

[Anakist]

I expect it will all depend on the engineer you take it to to get it certified. One of those things unfortunately.

James

[fimpBIKES]

i would give the bloke up in QLD a call

cant remember his name....
anyone?

he had a nice long chat with me about my frame
and knows his shit

it might vary from state to state too
i know that victoria is looking to crack down on this sorta thing

[speeddemon]

AS docs are very generic and not that relevant I believe.

Most good engineers can spot quality just from the weld job.

Not sure what QLD requiremenst are but Xray will pick up weld depth issues etc and some people have had to do this for custom frames etc. As far as I know anyone can weld it up - just the quality of it that counts.

You really need to speak to a engineering certifier that is approved by your state motor transport body. They will fill you in in like 2 seconds, but each can have varying requirements depending on how much of a goodguy/dickhead they think you are.

[BillyWhizz888]

ALL incorrect

Engineers (structural usually) who sign off, accept it as what?
I work with them daily and eat them on a regular basis, they are great at calculus ect, but know very little about welding, metalurgy and testing procedures..........

The engineer MUST work to an approved AS standard, code or specification

if he doesnt how can comparrisons or faults be found

The assesors need to work to something otherwise what do they benchmark against

Lets put it this way... moves are in place to regulate things, starting in Victoris a very well known frame repairer / manufacturer has been in touch with me asking for assistance, they want him to comply..
but have nothing to baseline it on...
scary or what

Keep going ;)

[chopaweeza]

I actually know the answer to all those questions as I did a stint as Compliance Officer for the Chopper Builders . However, these days I keep such knowledge to myself as too many people think they know better and most don't listen anyway. It avoids arguments that way .

[Jockney Rebel]

the guy in qld s called shaun and hes just set up a business frame building so i guess hes been thru all that fairly recently pommie chopper i think his forum name is

[BillyWhizz888]

Nah [xx(]

[fimpBIKES]

quote:Originally posted by BillyWhizz888

ALL incorrect

Engineers (structural usually) who sign off, accept it as what?
I work with them daily and eat them on a regular basis, they are great at calculus ect, but know very little about welding, metalurgy and testing procedures..........

The engineer MUST work to an approved AS standard, code or specification

if he doesnt how can comparrisons or faults be found

The assesors need to work to something otherwise what do they benchmark against

Lets put it this way... moves are in place to regulate things, starting in Victoris a very well known frame repairer / manufacturer has been in touch with me asking for assistance, they want him to comply..
but have nothing to baseline it on...
scary or what

Keep going ;)



ok
firstly- i am never wrong
secondly- i AM an engineer (mechanical design)
thirdly- i definitely cannot sign off on vehicle mods

you are a bit mixed up i think
you need to talk to a registered automotive engineer (most i have met arent actually degree qualified engineers, thats a completely different thing)

im pretty sure that guy in QLD is called Dave Kellet, give the man a call

[BillyWhizz888]

Have spoken to Paul Walsh Senior automotive engineer RAC WA also
Reno Marchesi "The Man" who wrote the dotars documents, he is also head honcho for DPI in WA

unfortunatly...... nothing exists as far as AS compliance goes...
No weld procedures are required
No welding qualifications are required
he is reluctant to e-mail me this information....

I wonder why.....

Watch this space... I aint letting this one go away

[Hagarr]

Mel you are spot on. This is why my Harris is licensed as a Suzuki and not a Harris I spent years and i mean years trying to work out how to get "Hagar" licensed as a Harris.
To cut a very long story short remember the CB750 Chopper frames that were around in the 70's called "Amen" frames this is the frame that all aftermarket kit frames were based on in Western Australia and as far as I know still is. Apparently they allowed a number of frames to be destructive tested. Unless a frame came in to the country with an ADR Compliance plate this is the only way they were acceptable. You can license a bike as a "No List" but they still revert back to the engine make as the "Manufacturer" A friend of mine years ago bought a McIntosh from Mick Hone in Victoria and spent shitloads on it but when he went to license it they would not accept it. After much discussion he spoke to Mick Hone and said he wanted his money back as he could not get it licensed a deal was brokered with Mick and Marchesi to allow it to be licensed. So as you say Mel as far as I know still to this day there is no relevant AS in the repair or manufacture of motorcycle frames or components. If any one know's any different pplleaseee let me know as I would be very interested.
P.S Don't get me started on Sidecars now there is another strange one. Good Luck Mel!!!

[EXBEN]

Im a bit confused here Billy, are you pushing for more regulation ??
Are you looking to make it harder for repaired / modified frames to get registered &/or engineered ??
Currently to get a modded frame passed you go to an RTA certified engineer he decides whether it is welded correctly & if it's sutabily strong, then if there is any question about weld quality he has the option to get the frame xrayed before he makes a decision on whether to pass it or not.
Now Im all for disallowing dodgey workmanship when it comes to welding but isn't that why we have to get an engineers certificate in the first place, to sort the rubbish from the quality.
Also I don't believe that a person should have to have any certain qualification to have their welding passed.
There are plenty of quality " backyard " builders in this country & I believe this kind of regulation just scares people off from having a go.

[Hagarr]

Sorry Exben but you perhaps don't understand the W(ait)estern
A(while)ustralian side of things here you see there is no such thing as an Engineers Certificate here in WA. You need to suck some serious Cock in this part of the land to get anything through in this state. I might also say that you perhaps don't do much in the way of pipeline construction because I can assure you it is very important that the person welding the pipe has the correct weld specification and qualification to work to before he makes any attempt at repairing or manufacturing any form of pipe work. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about please visit my Website WaterCon.

[EXBEN]

My mistake, I thought we were talking about motorcycles....

[damo1]

quote:Originally posted by BillyWhizz888

After many many e-mails, phone calls and letters
I STILL DONT HAVE AN ANSWER.......

What AS standard applies to welding or repairs of motorcycle frames
What weld procedures are used
What welding tests do the wleders have to take
What NDT is done (Non Destructive Testing)
What tests are required on frame building
What specification does the above conform to

What is the standard the vehicle is examined to

Now seeing as I have contacted Dotars, DPI, Tafe's Uni's blah blah blah

whats the crack, Jack :-)



Thats what i thought to Exben[?][?]

[BillyWhizz888]

OK...
I do not want more legislation
Lets get that out of the way

The reason this topic came up are;

1) A mates Ducati frame was cracked and welded by a n other
after a week on the road it cracked again...
what if he had crashed would payment be made due to cracking, and repair by a non qualified person?

2) A MRA member voiced her concerns this week over the fact the engine cradle snapped on her trike weld failure, luckily in her garage

Fimp
firstly- i am never wrong you aint married then?
secondly- i AM an engineer Oh.. searches for engineer funnies
and I have 16 engineers report through me, and they cant sign off anything either ;) they are to busy tending there whip marks :D

I am not having a dig either mate, its just a subject that interests me, being a guy who likes to wield a grinder and wed things up

My concerns are;
There isnt a baseline of conformity that the engineers are made to work to,

The assesors do not have guidelines, rules or regulations as to what constitutes good or bad repairs, Sef discretion is the better part of I am gonna fcuk up your day sonny!

The insurance companies have an out clause by persons of a non qualified background making alterations / repairs to your bike

more importanty for those who are not trained to a high enough standard, many people are riding out there on what could be a death trap

over to you lads...

[Hagarr]

Exben and Damo my point is the parallels are the same whether you are welding steel pipe for a pipeline or pipe on a motorcycle you must have a procedure for the repair/manufacture of the item otherwise if you exceed the limits of the parent material either by the use of too many Amps or Volts or wire speed etc etc then the repair /manufacture could fail not at the weld necessarily but also at the toe of the weld. Yes I am talking about motorcycles.

[cutcat]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

My mistake, I thought we were talking about motorcycles....

Good call Ben.

I'm 100% with you Ben. Thats how it works in VIC too. Its the individual automotive engineers descretion on what is good work and what is not. If he is satisfied he will sign off to allow the modified bike or car to be registered.;)

[BillyWhizz888]

quote:Originally posted by cutcat


quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

My mistake, I thought we were talking about motorcycles....

Good call Ben.

I'm 100% with you Ben. Thats how it works in VIC too. Its the individual automotive engineers descretion on what is good work and what is not. If he is satisfied he will sign off to allow the modified bike or car to be registered.;)


Thats how it works in VIC... mate you need to get in contact with people... the VIC government is trying to shut everyone down and will shut them down once they get enough info on what they want them to adhere to, I have been chatting to Bob Martin and am trying to help him stay in front of the hassel
http://www.bobmartinengineering.com/home_Intro.htm
do you a not think I do homework on whats happening around the states

Exben.... you cannot x-ray a frame? tth material is too thin, you may be able to UT it with the latest equipment but even that woud be dodgy (yes I happen to be a welding inspector also apart from a demi god)
Lads... no one here is trying to be smart or stir the shit, all I am trying to point out is nothing exsist's as far as quality procedures or testing goes,
BUT, the states are underway in doing something, I just happened to latch on to it and make some enquiries

Bleat al you ike but change is coming and sooner than you think especially in VIC

[EXBEN]

quote:Exben.... you cannot x-ray a frame? tth material is too thin, you may be able to UT it with the latest equipment but even that woud be dodgy (yes I happen to be a welding inspector also apart from a demi god)

That explains why I've never had to have it done. Seems the engineers visual inspection has always been enough so far.

I wonder what is actually going to happen. The government always seems to take the less work for us the better approach to things like this & with legislation comes responsibility. Currently
the responsibility lies with the builder but if these new "rules" come in who does it lie with then? The engineer that approves the frame? The Governing body that has come up with the standard?
Im not saying your incorrect Billy, but I will wait to see what changes actually come in force & what loopholes will allow builders to get their work passed.
Also will the changes apply to cars as well? That could really open another can of worms.
Im not trying to be a smartass Im just a synic.
Who knows they may supprise me.[:0]

[fimpBIKES]

wouldnt suprised me if they just bumped up the cost of the tests, proceedures and bullshit fees so it just put it out of reach of most self-builders

it is however pretty cheap to have a test weld from a person tested
we had some done a while back to get some guys approved to do SP (special purpose, thats your pipeline shit) when we did a job for shell aus.

i thnk about 300 each though, so still pretty up there for someone like myself



i am still concerned that frames in the last 5yrs have gotten much fancier as for as the sections of ally being used
more larger tubing, but with thinner walls
great for stiffness but im a bit concerned about heat-affected zones having problems after repairs
(something which i never really here anyone talk about)

[loosebruce]

One of the complicating factors in this discussion is the diversity of materials used in frames.
From old skool mild steel (zap it with mig then reheat and air cool to allow recrystallisation.),through to die cast aluminium on the current Suzuki SV/Yamaha R6 ranges (WTF,Dunno, think it's RTD).
What is safe on on doesn't apply to another, maybe AS applied to materials and loadings(subframe on a GS125 vs swingarm mounts on a Hayabusa) used is more applicable.
Too many rules already, don't encourage the bastards Billy. [V]

[BillyWhizz888]

The last word-ish

All looks good, the Engineer does the deed
and the welding he checks conforms to Australian Standard..
oooops bugger


From: Chris Drabikowski [mailto:ceedra@internode.on.net]
Sent: Tuesday, 3 July 2007 07:36
To: Culley, Mel
Cc: Robert.Seow@dotars.gov.au; Danny Law
Subject: Re: Repairs & welding of motorcycle frames [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]


Mel,
If a motorcycle frame needs repairing, it would be off an used, registered (or previously registered) motorcycle. Such "in-service" vehicles are subject to regulations issued by the registering authorities in each State. These requirements may vary from State to State.
Usually the registering authorities (and very often, the Insurance companies as well) would require an engineer's report on the repairs. In Victoria, for example, such a repaired frame would have to be subjected to a VIV inspection (Vehicle Identity Verification) and subsequently to VASS inspection (engineer's report). The authorised engineer then would assess the repairs.
Although it is up to the individual engineer what approach he is going to take, usually he would want to see that the frame has been repaired in accordance with the frame manufacturer's specifications (methods of welding, heating, stress relieving, measurements on the jig etc). In case the manufacturer's specifications are not available, the engineer would request a metallurgical examination of the bare frame (check if the materials used are compatible and weldable, do the hardness tests and request weld inspection - magnetic particle test or similar). Verification of dimensional correctness of the repaired frame would also have to be performed and this may be quite difficult if the repairer did not use a jig to perform the repairs in the first place.

Kind regards,

Chris Drabikowski MIEA, MSAE, CPEng

[Hagarr]

Mel whilst you're at it what is the situation now for non ADR'd motorcycles and registration of such vehicles?

:D
Evening Punters.

Just fuckin silicone it, and ride it.

P.S. Is there a metal urgonist amongst us?

Love from
Davo [:X]

[Pommy Chopper]

A very interesting topic!!!
Billywhizz, AKA The long prong i assume????

Bloody hell i should have been a detective!!
There's a message for ya on UKW!

Remember;

Those who can, weld.

Those who can't, teach.

And those who can't do either?? They Inspect!!

Contraversial i know!!!!:D

Cheers all:)

[EXBEN]

quote:davo Posted - 03 Jul 2007 : 19:13:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evening Punters.

Just fuckin silicone it, and ride it.

P.S. Is there a metal urgonist amongst us?

Love from
Davo
Well look who stuck their head in. Where U been hiding Davo?

[gibbo]

Davo, is that really you[?] what, no net access in prison;)

[BillyWhizz888]

quote:Originally posted by Pommy Chopper

A very interesting topic!!!
Billywhizz, AKA The long prong i assume????
Bloody hell i should have been a detective!!
There's a message for ya on UKW!
Cheers all:)


HEY Thats not a root gap haha
funny the lovely people you meet anywhere in the world!
no revealing secrets about my weapon

cheers

[vtr420]

http://www.motorcycleroadworthys.com.au/

[fimpBIKES]

just realised that when i got mine through its repairable write-off inspection i pointed out the rewelded section

and that was it! i guess i should have got an engineers cert for it, oh well




DAVO!!! how the fuck are ya?!!?