turbo question igniton timing

[Yella]

Ok smart people,[8D]:D[8D]
What is a rule of thumb for ignition timing with a turbo
Stanard Zx7 ignition timing is
10 btdc at 1100rpm
45 btdc at 5000rpm

I have seen a dyna 2000 igintion system that can be set up to retard igniton under boost
Or a ZX9 ignition modual has a
10 btdc at 1100rpm
32.5 btdc at 5000rpm
could try that???? I would have to work out how to change the redline limiter???

I am looking to run stock motor, carb set up for now, best pump fuel available, 5-7 psi. For the first time then build 9 motor at a later date if/when all goes boom
I have looked all over the interweb and I have not found many turbo zx7's and evey man and his dog has a opinion on ignition timing with turbo's so I have come to ask the people in the know.

Feel free to tell me I have no idea if you feel you must [:p] but any help would be great as long as it's not sell it and buy a zx10 ( im off to search the web again)

Next will be carby jetting, float level and maybe cam timing question so be warned ;)

[Booster]

Ign timing is a real touchy subject and one setting does not suit all
i run just about std timing , maybe pull a couple of degrees out sometimes,
best timing for your application is going to be found on a dyno, where you can see a hp decrease or at least no increase for a change .
Your std timing figure at 45 deg is that measured with a timing light or off a ign table before corrections are applied ,
some of the gix ign tables go to 88 deg , but thats in little used off throttle hi rpm zones that don't mean much in the real world

[Yella]

Thanks Booster
The figures I have are straight from the manual,

[Booster]

ok see what effect on timing the throttle position switch has , on my carb 750 suz i first turbo'd, disconnecting the tps reduced timing .
get an adjustable timing light or a degree wheel and test how the tps and engine temp sensors effect the timing, sometimes all you need is a hobbs switch to switch in or out the tps or add or remove resistance to the temp sender to make a few degree variation in timing

[Yella]

ZX7 does not have a TPS. I have been trying to find out what triggers the controller to advance. Looks to be strictly RPM based thru the ignitor unit.

[Hagarr]

quote:Ign timing is a real touchy subject and one setting does not suit all
i run just about std timing , maybe pull a couple of degrees out sometimes,
best timing for your application is going to be found on a dyno, where you can see a hp decrease or at least no increase for a change .
Your std timing figure at 45 deg is that measured with a timing light or off a ign table before corrections are applied ,
some of the gix ign tables go to 88 deg , but thats in little used off throttle hi rpm zones that don't mean much in the real world


Ahhh!!!!! I wondered why I was seeing some strange numbers on the ECU Editor datalogging pages.

sorry to trash your thread Yella.[8D]

[Yella]

All good

[Dynomutt]

Generally if you are intending to run higher levels of boost, then you need to look at retarding the ignition timing to prevent detonation. The dyna200 can be hooked up to a pressure switch on the plenum which then activates the orange wire and retards the ignition timing. You should be ale to run upto around 7psi on stock internal with no issuess regards ignition timing. Once you start to get into higher boost levels then you'll need to look at retarding. you can slot the ignition back plate to retard the whole ignition curve but this can make the bike boggy off boost. Generally unless you are running big boost you will only need to retard by 2 to 4 degrees.

[EXBEN]

I'd say leave it alone for that boost level. Now in saying that, the safest thing to do would be to make an adjustable Ignition rotor so you could retard timing 4-6 degrees while tuning the fuel then once the fueling was sorted you could sneak back up on the timing, this will probably make it Idle a bit shit so you may need to wind up the idle speed while the ignition is retarded. It can all go bad very quickly if you have a major lean out while on boost, especially if you are road tuning. By retarding the timing you will give yourself a bit of a buffer.

[Yella]

What is classed as high boost. I have read lots of crazy report from keyboard hero's on other forum's 30psi + in some cases ( I say keyboard hero because I have seen lots of talk but not much backing it up)
How much boost do you think a zx7 could handle with minimal mods 10psi, 15psi my experience with turbo's is limited but I think it would start to run into issues anything above 10psi.

[EXBEN]

30psi would be an interesting ride,I think up to 10psi would be classed as low, 10-18psi would be classed as moderate & anything over that could be classed as high. It's not really relative though because 15psi on a GT35 is going to make a lot more power than 15psi on a T25. Smaller turbos tend to have a higher optimum low boost operating pressure, Eg; when you buy a GT2560 it comes with a 7psi wastegate spring stock whereas a GT20 comes with a 13.5Psi wastegate spring.

[EXBEN]

quote:How much boost do you think a zx7 could handle with minimal mods 10psi, 15psi my experience with turbo's is limited but I think it would start to run into issues anything above 10psi.


No intercooler I'd keep it below 8psi, with a base spacer under the barrels & an intercooler you could possibly go to around 12-15Psi depending on other factors, the main one being getting the fueling well sorted, this is a big challenge with carbs.

[Yella]

More questions.
Is it best to run a time delay relay for the scavenger pump to keep in running for X amount of time after the bike is shut down?

Ben from memory you did a turbo zx7 a while back and Judge. Did you move the oil cooler as well as the oil filter is it the same bypass plate on both looks similar. Is it worth doing do you gain much extra room?

[EXBEN]

Mine was ZXR750, I didn't relocate the oil filter/cooler on that because it wasn't an issue, on the 98 model ZX9R they put the oil filter on the end of the oil cooler, it was right where I wanted the turbo to go,so I moved it, you won't need to do this.
Hook the scavenge pump up to the Key so you can kill the motor with the kill switch & leave the pump running. I only leave it going for a few seconds anyway.

[Yella]

Thanks

[Dynomutt]

Rather than making an adjustable rotor, it is usually easier to slot the screw holes on the pick up plate, whih allows you to rotate the pick ups and alter the timing.

[latheboy]

I retarded the ignition 5°,It rides fine off boost at this setting... Stock motor 7PSI and an intercooler.

I had knock sign so i've left it at 5° till i get back on the dyno and play with it.

Keep and ear out for knocking......

[EXBEN]

quote:Dynomutt Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 18:24:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rather than making an adjustable rotor, it is usually easier to slot the screw holes on the pick up plate, whih allows you to rotate the pick ups and alter the timing.
There's not enough room on the ZX7R to do that, also the pickup has dowels incorperated in the bolt holes so it would be a fuck around,much easier to get something like this http://www.solomotoparts.com/catalog/Factory-Pro-Adjustable-Ignition-Advancer-for-ZX7R-91-03-p-23961.html

[Dynomutt]

My pick up was similar with small dowels built in to the rear of the pick ups, I just ground them off, and slotted the holes and retarded things by 4 degrees to reduce the detonation risk on my 650. I also found that by changing the CR9EK plugs for the CR9EKPA plugs which are stock fitment on the ZX12R the detonation was taken care of without having to pull the ignition timing. the reason for this is due to the protruded electrode of the EKPA placing the spark further into the combustion chamber, which means the spark origin is already closer to the edge of the cylinder, so the burn is propogated completely before the cylinder pressure rises to the point of self ignition in the unburnt portion of the inlet charge ahead of the flame front.
There is also a product on the market called "Power Pour" which is a specific anti detonant, it does not raise the octane rating at all, but prevents detonation in boosted or higher compression engines. I was reccomended it by a friend of mine Tim Blakemore who races a ZX14 superstreet turbo, as well as a 750bhp ZX14 based funnybike, Tim was the first person to attain a 200mph terminal speed over the quarter mile on a UK track. He uses it on the Superstreet ZX14 turbo, it allows him to run higher boost pressures on pump fuel, and is legal for use in classes where the octane rating must stay the same as when it was pumped. It is far safer to use than toluene, and allows mugh higher compression with much more aggressive ignition maps.

[Yella]

Adjustable advancer has been added to the list of required items and looking into new plugs

Next question,
Oil Feed, how much is to much/ not enough I am looking at tapping off a oil gallery near the oil presssure switch would a fitting with a 2mm hole be OK. Still need to see what pressure is at this port but guessing it would be same as at oil pressure switch

[Yella]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN


quote:How much boost do you think a zx7 could handle with minimal mods 10psi, 15psi my experience with turbo's is limited but I think it would start to run into issues anything above 10psi.


No intercooler I'd keep it below 8psi, with a base spacer under the barrels & an intercooler you could possibly go to around 12-15Psi depending on other factors, the main one being getting the fueling well sorted, this is a big challenge with carbs.


I am working on fitting an intercooler as part of the fit upwill keep an eye out on evilbay and think of doing a Mega Squirt fuel injection system in the future as part of the 9 motor fit up but that will have to wait. For now it's dicking around with the carb's till it is good or blows up :);)[B)][:0]

[Deano]

A wise man once told me to 'buy the best ecu you can afford' and '$400 ecu will not do the job of a $2500 ecu' my advice mate is to avoid the megasquirt like the plague
The above 2 pieces of advice were some of the best advice I have ever got and I have never looked back. I was going to go down the ms path but am so glad I didn't. And there are people round these parts that can probably even give you reasonably close cal files to get you started

[mr.zxr]

On my old zxr750 setup, i had a 1mm spacer under the barrells to reduce compression and 4 degree retard with the stock ignition. i ran 18psi. the gearbox let go before anything else. My advice is to listen to EXBEN. he knows his shit when it comes to turbos and kawasaki's. he's done alot of trial and error. let him blow the motors up and then tell you what not to do:D

[Yella]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN


quote:Dynomutt Posted - 25 Apr 2011 : 18:24:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rather than making an adjustable rotor, it is usually easier to slot the screw holes on the pick up plate, whih allows you to rotate the pick ups and alter the timing.
There's not enough room on the ZX7R to do that, also the pickup has dowels incorperated in the bolt holes so it would be a fuck around,much easier to get something like this http://www.solomotoparts.com/catalog/Factory-Pro-Adjustable-Ignition-Advancer-for-ZX7R-91-03-p-23961.html


I ordered an adjustable ignition advancer from ebay waited 3 days then was told no stock, so went the the above link no stock what the fuck is going on :( :( googled to see what else is about nothing I can find so far fuuuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkk

[Yella]

Ok does anyone konw if an advancer off a zx6 or zx9 would fit :D

[80s freak]

Sorry to hijack your thread for a minute Yella, but just had to say a big thanks to EXBEN and Dynomutt, you guys are the reason this forum is so great. Thanks for happily sharing all this info, you guys are an inspiration.