Judge blowup

Has any one got the videoof the Jude on the dyno yesterday?
sorry Ben
cheers Bones

[BANDITROD]

mmmmmm shit ben thats not good to hear but im sure a man of your talents will get it going better that before

[Cruisecontrol]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMN_ydMcvvo

[Gitzy]

Aaaah Shit.. thats no good at all..

[latheboy]

Sad to see that happen.....

[kev@vcm]

WOW sparks not good to see that happen to any bike , hope its all sorted out ben

[Watto]

fuck thats not good and sorry to hear Ben - sounded pretty sweet before that tho

[thewiz]

fark it did sound pretty sweet what was the cause .

[Large]

Where's the "Extended Director's Cut"?

Huge meltdown,I'll give ya 75bux for the rolling chasis.

[Weaselman]

It'll rise again ive seen it blow up twice

[Booster]

Melt the power cable for the fan on the exhaust ??

[Deano]

quote:Originally posted by davo

Huge meltdown,I'll give ya 75bux for the rolling chasis.


already offered 5k mate so have to up your bid a bit.

at least you had a laugh about it mate. with all the work and $$$ that has gone into that bike another motor is a small issue.

[livewire]

Well, that sux arse, what a bastard.
Rod let go?

[EXBEN]

Ok so here's what happened. Lack of oil pressure due to the scotts reusable oil filter trying to suck itself inside out. I did an oil change the night before the & found a little bit of shit in the filter when I opened it up. Said the famous last words "She'll be right",as I was planing to pull the motor down after the dyno day anyway, to replace a worn output shaft.
I rode to the Explosive Racing (fitting) Dyno day (45min ride) & all seemed nice & smooth so I thought I'll stick it on the dyno & see how we go.
Did a few pulls & it was down on power, on the last one after taking longer than usual to rev out it went pop......& the fireball ensued. The vid that CC posted is the cut down version, hopefully they'll post the full version soon.
Anyway pulled the motor down today & this is what I found.

Pretty sure it's not meant to look like this..
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286274606.jpg

or this...
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286199934.jpg

& I don't think this stuff's meant to be in here..
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286217778.jpg

here you can see the blackened area from the fireball.
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286197584.jpg

Daylight!!!
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286223512.jpg

[EXBEN]

All the mains were stuffed due to the lack of oil pressure,
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286288600.jpg


This is the worst part. I fucked one of my new custom JE Pistons.
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286223685.jpg

[kev@vcm]

:( that looks painfull ben , its never good when that happens to your pride n joy , hope that shes all back up an running soon mate

[Booster]

Ouch..
I have some cases like that , costs of hp
some of the busa guys are having probs with the reusable billet filters, collapsing in on themselves or the stainless mesh seperating from the glued on ends,looks to me like there surface area is inadequate, yours similar ?
thinking it was the cause of my race busa engine spinning bearings on the dyno in March too
back to replacable k&n or std now

[EXBEN]

Yes that's exactly what happened to mine. I too am now using disposable filters.

[NoZ]

holy shit, that's a lotta metal and a big hole! Sucks .. looks expensive

[latheboy]

Maybe if you didn't leave that ruler in the motor when you put it back together last time it would have been ok.

Did the turbo survive?
Any damage to the frame/anything else?

Time to go bigger and better Ben.

[Deano]

thats not good. doesn't look like the heac, barrels and that piston survived like you had hoped

[scotty]

bummer dude,
Bet the dyno op needed some new undies after that run

[maximus]

Ben, sorry to hear/ see the damage. Just wondering, would a large supercharger have the same potential problems?

[xa-mont]

Thats a pretty nasty result!

Does this open up plans for bigger better things?

[latheboy]

quote:Originally posted by maximus

Ben, sorry to hear/ see the damage. Just wondering, would a large supercharger have the same potential problems?


If there's foreign objects in the oil it won't matter if it's N/A, turbo or supercharged... It'll go bang

[EXBEN]

quote:maximus
pizza delivery boy/girl



Australia
43 Posts


Donating Member
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 09:11:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ben, sorry to hear/ see the damage. Just wondering, would a large supercharger have the same potential problems?


It blew because of a lubrication system problem. Nothing to do with the forced induction.

[EXBEN]

Here's the old girl as she stands waiting for a new heart....[V]

http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286283437.jpg

[kev@vcm]

i look at your bike ben like it is now and its still impressive ,

[Iceman]

I'm no expert on these, but it looks fucked to me. On the bright side, it can be rebuilt and no-one was hurt. (besides emotionally)

[chopiesel]

i think you should put a turbo zx-14 motor in!!!!

[livewire]

Inner 3 mains gone supports oil starve observation cos they're furthest from oil pump.
What's ya cam journals look like?
Thats the 4th motor I've heard of/know killed by oil filter in the last 6 months.
Hope others learn from that. I have, OEM for me now.
Notice that operator was watching bike tacho. Dunno if I personally would.
Whilst it probably is right, they sometimes aren't.
And some only update every half second. At 600rpm/sec, that can be 300 rpm out, too.
May have been the video camera, but geez, it sounded like it was 'busy'.
What did the graph say it rev'ed to?

[El_Hefty]

Bad luck Ben but i await what comes out of it all in time

[EXBEN]

quote:livewire Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 16:47:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inner 3 mains gone supports oil starve observation cos they're furthest from oil pump.
What's ya cam journals look like?
Thats the 4th motor I've heard of/know killed by oil filter in the last 6 months.
Hope others learn from that. I have, OEM for me now.
Notice that operator was watching bike tacho. Dunno if I personally would.
Whilst it probably is right, they sometimes aren't.
And some only update every half second. At 600rpm/sec, that can be 300 rpm out, too.
May have been the video camera, but geez, it sounded like it was 'busy'.
What did the graph say it rev'ed to?
The rev limiter is set to 12300.
Cam journals look fair there is some marks though.

[Explosive]

Wow Ben it made a mess of things hope there was no other damage to the bike.
I have a freind putting it on youtube soon the full version.
And yes i did shit my self.

[hooligan]

at least the seat on judge isn't pink any more.








sorry Ben.

[EXBEN]

Well not in that light anyway...

[rod185651]

I reckon with your skills Ben, you can have it up and running ready for the NFR easy ;)

[BANDITROD]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

Well not in that light anyway...
i think chris was refering to the dude shitting himself on it mate;) so now whats the plans for it mate bigger donk or are you gunna stick with the 9

[EXBEN]

quote:BANDITROD Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 22:30:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by EXBEN

Well not in that light anyway...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think chris was refering to the dude shitting himself on it mate so now whats the plans for it mate bigger donk or are you gunna stick with the 9
Oh yeah, he a funny cunt, ha ha ...

Cause it's engineered with the 9 motor I think I'll stick with it. I'm thinking of stealing the Drag bike motor for now, ah... yes the drag bike sitting in the corner, now that may get a new enhanced heart...

[livewire]

How did ya go with ya 9 second quarter for 9 grand?
Mission accomplished?

[RC36]

:(

[EXBEN]

quote:livewire Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 00:24:16
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How did ya go with ya 9 second quarter for 9 grand?
Mission accomplished?
Actually it was meant to be 8 for 8 but the way business has been for the last couple of years, has meant no fun stuff for me just work. So it's been put on the back burner.

[pesh]

Not a good thing to happen to any bike let alone the Judge . I have no doubt that it will be back and riding in no time .
She still looks bling a fuk even with the motor out .

[Tony Nitrous]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

Ok so here's what happened. Lack of oil pressure due to the scotts reusable oil filter trying to suck itself inside out.

Ben, any pic's of the filter ?

I'd be greatful for any info on the Scotts filters failing as I know folk who use these.

Thanks,

Tony.

Are those Scott filters sold under any other brand names?

[Watto]

I have a pc racing brand billet jobbie from the states on mine - wonder if facing a similar situ......

http://pcracingusa.com/store/index.php?cPath=13_5

Bens unfortunately is first i had heard about with issues

[chopiesel]

is the prob with the scotts just with forced engines? or natural too?

[EXBEN]

Actually the one on my bike was a K&P one from bikespares.com.au.
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286544664.jpg


When I removed it the screen was twisted up a lot more, I've straightened it out before this photo. The ends had come unglued which had allowed it to suck in more.
This isn't because the bike is turbocharged, although when discussing it with Booster he made a good point that you get more clutch wear in a turbo bike & these filters are designed to filter much smaller particles than standard filters & probably are more prone to cloging up with fine particles of clutch material. Im not going to bad mouth the filter as they seem to be a high quality item, but I won't use one anymore on a highly stressed motor where good flow is essential.

[EXBEN]

It appears not to be an isolated case either.
http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=147437.0

[Large]

Too much suck...not enough blow?[:p]

**** UPDATE ******

Full version of video is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xueHAMidaBA

[EXBEN]

Ahhh the memories..........[xx(]

[kev@vcm]

after seeing the entire video i knew it was bad but not that bad "HOLLY BENT CONRODS BATMAN" that had the potential to be very bad mate , glad that no 1 was injured mate

[Large]

Nice vid.

Woulda preferred to hear the pops and bangs tho'

[xa-mont]

Nice one... love when the turbo starts burning up (i assume from oil pissing out onto it...) at least it is immortalised on the internet. Much better than it happening and not having the video to remember it by.

[Gix11]

Impressive stuff! In a shit kind of way of course....

[MDM]

Ouch! It's not nice to see that happen to any bike, let alone one of your favourite...
Still, far better for that to happen on the dyno than when out on the open road...
Get that race motor chucked in Ben, the 8-for-8 bike can wait! ;)

[Gitzy]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

the way business has been for the last couple of years, has meant no fun stuff for me just work. So it's been put on the back burner.


Ya'll heard the man.. break out the credit cards guys and let the man have some fun.. Need I remind you of some of the awesomeness he has provided over time, Venom (http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4510) , 8 for 8 (http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11005), Bling Front End (http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17990), Balakov's K5 Turbo (http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7966&whichpage=1) just to name a handfull.. we need a new build with lots of eye candy.. Ben's good at them..

[MONO]

As Booster said, high performance engines have the tendancy to increase clutch wear and degeneration many times over compared to standard. However, nearly most issues of engine oil failure are due to the lack of engine oil. As my family owns Brisbane Air Cleaner Services I have seen cases like this time and time again. They normally result from an aftermarket filter which may or may not be matched correctly. Also a thing to add is dirty oil never results in dramatic engine failure, just increases wear at contact points.

The main issue IMO here is the original manufacturer of the after market filter does not specify a bypass spring or flow pressure as part of their filter specifications. They gone on about how much they flow, however when running an engine beyond its original capabilities (as we all love to do and is part of every day living)heat is one of the major problems being that when oil increases in heat it will also reduce in viscosity. When this happens oil pressure suffers and may not maintain its original pump flow / PSI which will actuate filter bypass spring. Therefore, as the filter fills up with materials e.g. clutch, it clogs the flow of the oil. This is where oil bypass systems must be married accordingly to engine pump specs. It is always better to have a lighter bypass spring in a higher hp engine which will result in dirtier oil but will still maintain high flow.

This is something that it should be no. 1 on the filter manufacturer's priority list. No one can ever complain if a filter gets clogged because it is doing it's job, but tragedy happens when it stops all oil. They don't even have a liability clause stating that this may or may not meet your manufacturer's specifications. They just go on to say how good it is, good for what ??? and which engine, like Scott's Performance Filters. http://www.scottsperformance.com/products.php?PartType=3

Also, when matching filters to engines, if you contact a filter specialist they will be able to give you PSI spring loads relating to OEM bypass filters. They also in most cases can give you a larger surface area filter that will do the job as long as space and size permits.

One of the best possible scenarios to ensure clean oil is to run an additional filter/s which are on a separate system that can be plumbed into the system before OEM filter and then bleed back into the sump. This way should they clog up oil flow is not compromised.

You are on the money Ben, stick with OEM or equivalent like Micro, Fleetguard or any other Japanese or USA made filters. Saw the vid and i was sad :( had to have a rant
As for The Judge, I know that you would already have a plan.:D

[bluemk1]

shit watching the full vid makes you realise just how close it was to being no longer.
lucky you guys managed to save it before the whole thing went up.

[MONO]

BTW above post directed soley at how those filters are marketed / advertised, and how are they are so great without showing full specs.
Don't want to sound like a know it all but if the so called filters were that great and fit everything my family wouldn't stock hundreds of different filters for hundreds of different applications, they would only have to just ONE filter. To avoid these melt downs and warranty claims, Nissan has put internal bypasses in their engines as a fail safe.

Just watched the second video, gee Ben, you nearly lost the lot and possible Dyno Room. [:0]

It's just that these stories annoy me when they are just so close to home.

[EXBEN]

After a couple of late nights of work she's almost all back together,
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286648156.jpg

One notable change is the genuine Kwaka filter
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286653723.jpg

The drag bike is gravity powered only tho....:(
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1286711763.jpg

[EXBEN]

Here is a 9 minute wrap of the Dyno sessions, Judge is at the 2.30 mark & there is a Nitrous ZX10 Just before me.
Steves turbo CB1000R is at the 7.05 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9EVBISQeoo

[MONO]

Looking good Ben !!.....much difference in engines

[EXBEN]

This one doesn't have low comp JE's :(

[Gitzy]

Holy shit you don't muck about do you Ben..

[EXBEN]

Just lucky I had a spare I guess...

[BANDITROD]

good to see mate

[hooligan]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

Just lucky I had a spare I guess...


I'm just imagining the coverasation in your head -
fuck. I need a zx9 engine.
don't worry, i've got one upstairs..

[EXBEN]

something along those lines...

[rod185651]

Good to see the judge back together again. Hope you don't let that fuel go stale in the tank.

[fimpBIKES]

painful to watch ben, but good work with the snazzy new one!

[Hillsy]

Hey Ben - just spotted this on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2000-ZX9-motor-3000klms-good-replacement-/150505286543?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230ad06b8f#ht_500wt_1156

[EXBEN]

Hey nice find, thanks for that. I'm keeping a close eye on it.;)

[livewire]

In hindsight, lucky it did it on the dyno, and not on the road.
Coulda been you and it down the road, fuck that!

[rock hard]

Hey Ben,ive had a good look at firstly the video and then the engine damage
and no disrespect to anyone but i would like to suggest another way
of looking at this component failure .its a little hard to see from the pictures but it appears that the con rod snapped just below the pin and the broken rod flailing around in the cases punched holes in front and rear of the crankshaft area.oil starvation should cause the big end to fail and cap and/or rod bolt failure.. the bearing damage was definatly oil related..But i was advised a while ago with the GSX drag bike,that because of the long stroke big bore Never just snap the throttle shut at the end of the quarter mile because on overrun the rods can stretch and fail BIG TIME..even last monday Patto used the same method on the dyno. Clutch in throttle shut...so that the engine is at idle and NOT trying to slow down a couple of hundred kilos of rotating Drum.as the revs slow down.im sure your oil filter has failed.but all the hundreds of tiny and not so tiny bits of metal flying around at maximum rpm would be mixed with the oil pumping through the pump via the filter.. after seeing the Judge go bang just after the throttle was shut i was so worried about the filter on the Bullfrog i removed and inspected it after it returned from the dyno and found no issues..granted my engine is normaly aspirated so the clutch material is not a problem and the JUDGE is short stroke Turbo using much higher rpm.the reason i fitted the filter is after each drag meeting i can see whats in the filter, il be honest im a little concerned about it but two of the people i respect the most in W.a. drag racing have used the same filter without a problem for three years.i repeat i mean no disrespect just a different way of looking at it..Sincerely Morry

[EXBEN]

Morry,I understand where you are coming from although I'm pretty certian the big end bearing went first causing the rod to fail, as it was black from heat(what was left of it) as was the rod around the base of the stem.

[EXBEN]

Pm sent Morry.

[rock hard]

Thanks mate

[NakedTurboBusa]

Fuck me!!!! Im gone for one day

cheers

pete in bum fuck idaho!!

[JackTar]

You're fucking bums where now Pete?

[JackTar]

Actually Pete while I think of it, you talked to me at an AFR about CS foam, you don't happen to know who manufactures that do you?

[Large]

quote:Originally posted by NakedTurboBusa

Fuck me!!!! Im gone for one day

cheers

pete in bum fuck idaho!!


Four beers a day and internet access?

Fooking looxury!

[EXBEN]

quote:JackTar Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 21:58:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're fucking bums where now Pete?
Here's a hint..
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1287665553.jpg

[Gix11]

Back in that game again?


...and that's not an aerial of Idaho either.

[EXBEN]

I believe he said Bum fuck idaho.... that a different place altogether.;)
OK here's a better idea.
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1287727353.jpg

[El_Hefty]

shootin abbos?

or digging dirt?

[EXBEN]

Erecting steel actually...

[Booster]

More like Nevada than Idaho... going to be a hot summer Pete

[EXBEN]

quote:Hillsy Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 22:17:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Ben - just spotted this on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2000-ZX9-motor-3000klms-good-replacement-/150505286543?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230ad06b8f#ht_500wt_1156
Thanks Hillsy I ended up winning that motor for $662. Twas pretty dirty when I picked it up & had no oil filter on so there was dirt in the main oil galley, although I gave it a degrease & a blow with compressed air & it looks pretty good. I'm going to split the cases to be sure I got all the dirt out anyway but when I looked inside the motor everything looks brand new so is really is only 3000ks old.
I'm pretty chuffed...

[BANDITROD]

i was watching that aswell ben but i thought you needed it more than i did so i didnt bother bidding

[Hillsy]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN


quote:Hillsy Posted - 11 Oct 2010 : 22:17:57
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Ben - just spotted this on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2000-ZX9-motor-3000klms-good-replacement-/150505286543?pt=AU_Motorcycle_Parts_Accessories&hash=item230ad06b8f#ht_500wt_1156
Thanks Hillsy I ended up winning that motor for $662. Twas pretty dirty when I picked it up & had no oil filter on so there was dirt in the main oil galley, although I gave it a degrease & a blow with compressed air & it looks pretty good. I'm going to split the cases to be sure I got all the dirt out anyway but when I looked inside the motor everything looks brand new so is really is only 3000ks old.
I'm pretty chuffed...



Sweet - that's pretty damn cheap for a 2000 motor ;)

[Large]

http://www.bcf.com.au/online-store/products/Blueline-Sand-Anchor-Galvanised-1-8Kg.aspx?pid=213305#Description

[mugget]

Hey all,

Very interesting thread... I saw the clip of Judge blowing up back when it happened, but I never knew why - I just thought it was one of those "modified engine" type problems...

Anyway I was pointed here after I bought a Scotts Filter for my Gixxer, seems to be alot of people bagging the Scotts Filters. And it sucks about what happened with the failure, but I've just gotta think... do you reckon it would have been different if you had used the filter as per the instructions? (IE - clean the filter every oil change.) I've got to ask - and I know that you know your stuff so I'm interested to hear what you think.

Kind of a bit paranoid about my bike now, even though it's a stock engine & I change the oil fairly regularly, every 3,000km (commuting + track days) or 2-3 track days (whichever is sooner). A very bad thought that your oil filter could bugger up at any time. :(

[EXBEN]

quote:do you reckon it would have been different if you had used the filter as per the instructions? (IE - clean the filter every oil change.) I've got to ask - and I know that you know your stuff so I'm interested to hear what you think.


It was cleaned every oil change.

[mugget]

quote:Originally posted by EXBEN

I did an oil change the night before the & found a little bit of shit in the filter when I opened it up. Said the famous last words "She'll be right",as I was planing to pull the motor down after the dyno day anyway, to replace a worn output shaft.


Unless I'm reading that wrong...?
I don't know how the filter works, but I'm just thinking if you saw some crud that it caught who's to say how much more was inside that you couldn't see? Unless you sort of had a feeling for what was 'normal' from previous oil change and cleaning?

[EXBEN]

You pull the filter apart to clean it, It's held together by a coil circlip type thing. The oil travels through the filter from the outside to the center so you have to pull them apart to inspect.

[Dynomutt]

One of the biggest causes of bigend failure is from debris from the main bearings being washed into the bigends.As a matter of course I have the cranks and rods balanced on every motor I build whether it be N/A or or forced. I weight match each of the piston assemblies to as close as I can using a selection of different gudgeon pins to match everything. Usually I'm happy if I get them within 0.3g of each other, which is slightly closer than the tolerance my crank people specify.
By doing this the main bearings get a much easier ride, and they are less likely to be damaged by the crank buzzing the mains, and washing debris into the bigends. A by product is a smoother spin up, and an increase in rev limit. I've just spun an FZR Genesis hybrid motor that I've built up to 12500rpm with no issues.
Whenever I run bikes on my dyno I never pull the clutch and shut them down, I'll let them run down slowly and sometimes increase the revs a little whilst they're running down and the roller is being braked.
Out of interest what bore size were you running in the blown motor? I'm currently building a hybrid 06' Z1000 motor using a combination of Zed and ZX9R parts, although this will be N/A running Mikuni TMR carbs rather than injection with a Dyna2000 ignition system for a ZX9R. I am using the plated ally block at present with stock bore and custom JE high comp drop ins at 12.5 to 1. I've looked at various options for big bores, but because of the position of the block and proximity of the bores it appears to be limited to a maximum of using 79mm pistons.
Bad luck with the blow up, the fire looked a little worrying, I have a fire extinguisher either side of me within easy reach in my dyno truck for just such occurences, thankfully the only fire I've had was a Gilera DNA with a fuel leak which flashed up when I sat on it and hit the starter button. Pass me some new under crackers please!!! Good luck with the new motor.