View Full Version : Todays no-shit-sherlock news story.
Had to share this one, I know you guys will appreciate this little gem from the UK ! ;)
I choked laffing !
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20100803/tuk-study-shows-uk-equates-islam-with-te-45dbed5.html
Another "No shit Sherlock" news story :D
uh huh... yet the other religion responsible for taking over the world and assimulating it gets no mention? lol
nick76
04-08-2010, 12:51 AM
I like the last few lines of that story.
One said: "They have taken our country over, it's not England any more. We have to make changes to please them."
"If I had my way I'd kick them all out of here," said another.
We'll be able to write that here shortly, and just change the "England" to Australia.
Funny how we,the majority(not sure for how much longer tho) have to change to help "them" assimilate, why the fuck don't they change to help assimilate into the country they are moving too??
If their country and lifesytle was so shit hot,why the fuck are they moving??
Religion IS shit.
My God`s better than your`s Nurr Nur Nah Nur Nurr !
If that twat pre-supposed the answers then why ask ?
Islamic way of looking at living in the UK:
They stand rigid in their lifestyle and views and are intolerant of any other ways and other cultures.
They think integrating and being accepted is about everyone else here adapting around and accepting their rigid doctrine and religious culture.
Well that isnt the way to become intergrated and accepted in our society or any others who live here.
The biggest whiners, whingers, haters and bleaters in the UK are by far those of religous persuasion.
I do`nt give a flying fuck about what anyones religion is as long as they do`nt keep ramming it down my throat and telling me "we" are not fitting in around them.
I`m quite happy knowing fuck all about any or all religion thank you. Zero interest ;)
Darwinism says "Adapt and survive". Lesson number one : fail.
Biggest global wipe outs and genocides have been in the name of whatever God or God substitute figure.
Religion = same shit / different badge.
I do`nt have any religious "badge" I have only one badge......... human mate ! ;)[^]
Spelling is difficult enough ?
nick76
04-08-2010, 08:35 AM
Well said HOS
I'm sure anyone on this forum who's met me in person could assure you that I'm one of those "religious people" that you could tolerate: If you want to know, ask, otherwise I'll just join in the fun.
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Biggest global wipe outs and genocides have been in the name of whatever God or God substitute figure.
But I'm calling bullshit on that statement, here's the facts:
"A compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to include religious elements. So, what our atheist friends often tell us is "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.
Taking a similar line, John P Conway in his article War and Religion: Is Religion to Blame? concludes:
it becomes apparent that those who make the claim "religion has been the cause of more wars than any other factor in history" may speak from ignorance or have ulterior motives for the assertion.
Conway's article is well worth reading.
Particularly thought-provoking is a paper presented at the University of Melbourne in 2006 by William T Cavanaugh in which he also challenges the generalities clung to by atheists and their sympathisers.
(All of which is NOT to say that the Church has never been wrong and that Christians have not inflicted suffering . . . it is just a plea that we allow the facts to inform our debates, and get things in proportion.) "
If you've got data to support your claim I'd love to be corrected!
Tony OW31
04-08-2010, 09:09 AM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
I'm sure anyone on this forum who's met me in person could assure you that I'm one of those "religious people" that you could tolerate: If you want to know, ask, otherwise I'll just join in the fun.
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Biggest global wipe outs and genocides have been in the name of whatever God or God substitute figure.
But I'm calling bullshit on that statement, here's the facts:
"A compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to include religious elements. So, what our atheist friends often tell us is "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.
Taking a similar line, John P Conway in his article War and Religion: Is Religion to Blame? concludes:
it becomes apparent that those who make the claim "religion has been the cause of more wars than any other factor in history" may speak from ignorance or have ulterior motives for the assertion.
Conway's article is well worth reading.
Particularly thought-provoking is a paper presented at the University of Melbourne in 2006 by William T Cavanaugh in which he also challenges the generalities clung to by atheists and their sympathisers.
(All of which is NOT to say that the Church has never been wrong and that Christians have not inflicted suffering . . . it is just a plea that we allow the facts to inform our debates, and get things in proportion.) "
If you've got data to support your claim I'd love to be corrected!
I would agree with you about actual wars, I would say most wars are economically motivated, but religion has had quite a few non wars like the Spanish inquisition.
Um yes and no.
Hitler was a fanatic, trying to wipe out the Jews and anyone differnt to what he believed in. The Crusades - xtian v's muslims. How about xtianity assimulating the world to what they saw as 'civilised' - closer to you would be the Lost Generation. All god faring white people out to clean the savages up all over the world. Then there's the killing in the UK when Henry 8th created a new religion - how many heretics were burnt during Mary Queen of Scots reighn - 254, loads more than any recorded witch burnings. Then there's the xtremist xtians who breed hate - such as the KKK. There are xtremist muslims, like al queda (created by a rich white xtian arsehole in charge of america). America's war on terror was just a white fantatical xtian going to war on a religion. How about the genocides in armenia and throughout africa, serbia, croatia.... thent there's the factions between islam killing each other.
There are tonnes of other examples of other races, invading shores and assimulating the population to their belief system. Just cos it's not called a war - doesn't mean that atrocities have not been committed in the name of religion or that it didn't back the justifcation to go into battle. Cleansing isn't a good thing.
As for the muslim thing, I've yet to meet any that meet the descriptions given by the so-called 'voice of the uk'... but then again, I don't live in Luton lol
My point being is that arseholes are prevailant in ALL faiths, religions and races. They all think they are better than the other. Fact is, this country (UK) was assimulated to the xtian faith back in 100ad... and we fought that, lost and then went on to be invaded again and again by other people with their faiths who changed our country forever. We owe a lot to muslim inventors - including pistons and valves, coffee, chess, surgical instruments... look it up.
My grandad came to the uk as an italian immigrant escaping his nazi homeland. Yet he was racist as fuck towards immigrants later in life. He worked his fingers to the bone to provided and never expected a hand out ever. It is a shame that so many come to our shores and demand stuff they haven't earned. It's not their god given right to have this shit.... and neither is it the uk lazy wanker population who have never worked or contributed to the pot. Dealing it doesn't count. These people should look closer to home and as my ma always say, people in glass houses shouldn't be launching rocks.
That is not to say that I agree with the latest invasion of immigrants but wasn't all this said 30-40 years ago when the carribean islanders decended on the uk? Part of the joys of being an empire/commonwealth. The door swings both ways.
Anyways, as Nero said, who ever control religion, controls the people. I'd line them all up against the wall personally, religion is evil. Faith isn't.
No doubt Tony, and by todays standards (don't miss that) to treat people that way is abhorrent even to us religious folk. For the most part, organised religion is disgraceful, if not outright criminal. That's why I'm never offended by the opinions presented both here and elsewhere.
Because you're right, we all judge entire groups by the most visible actions of the most conspicuous members. Motorcyclists are classic victims of this.
But again, I'd love to see some objective research and data presented: Specifically, numbers killed in inquisitions (and the like) compared to general slaughter throughout the ages. It'd be interesting to see how the numbers stack up. Remember, I'm not defending those acts, I'm challenging statements that aren't supported by evidence but are likely fueled by prejudice.
(edit: NoZ posted at roughly the same time)
NoZ: IMHO You summed it up perfectly in your last few words. And that's why (again IMO) people are so (rightfully) against religion (and more specifically Islam).
Cruisecontrol
04-08-2010, 11:30 AM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
But again, I'd love to see some objective research and data presented
Well, you will never get that from HOS. He has never let facts get in the way of his opinions...
fimpBIKES
04-08-2010, 12:34 PM
quote:Originally posted by NoZ
Cleansing isn't a good thing.
I've been saying that for years :D
Redmohawk
04-08-2010, 01:35 PM
Raw Horse Power (or Kilowatts if your a new testament) is the one true god ! All cower before it or worship in awe. Non sexist (just ask JoJo), non racicist, care's not for your money, will consume everything in its path, unable to be controled! But fun to try.
I know people of the Islamic faith that I would trust a great deal as christian, but neather would I hand my wallet and walk off. I have read both the Bible and the Koran,and several other books on more kooky stuff. As I belive you can't criticize something you know nothing about (I'm an Athiest don't celebrate easter or X-mas eather and work most public holidays) Both books basically teach tolerance of others and were written to spread good to others, Both have been abused and used since though mis quotes and twisting of what was origanlly ment to be expressed, to suit the desires of fucksticks that need to be fed to ant's while drip fed.
Many good people have faith such as Jup and take offence to people making criticisum of there beliefs with broad statments. I find people of true faith, usally a little less sensitive to this as there a little more enlightened. (No this isn't a dig at you jup, as this is a public forum and I think your coments are fair) Though the figures people express may be true they can be used to misleed as some of the wars/persicutions in the distant past proven to be of true religious motorvation may not have killed as many people as modern wars but mesured as a percentage of the world population at the time were far more horific (todays numbers would have been in the millions if not a billion) Good old Chinggis Khan (Genghis Khan's name to honnor him) and the Mongols probably killed most people of any army controlled by one indevidual as a percentage of world population and he wasn't motivated by religion.
Racisum is a natural thing (a form of self protection developed in the formative years of man to protect the tribe from outsiders possably ariving to do harm) but must be kept in check for the benifit of the tribe also! For without introduction of new blood and ways the tribe will loose vigor.
Personally I lean towards Buddhism as a more balanced form of faith, But I'm an omnivore As I have incisors and like to use them! I do not turn the other cheek when others do me or my friends harm, I do enough damage to ensure those that would do so never come close again. The earth is our mother, many ancient tribes have known this and lived in harmony, some thought better and thought themsleves smart (incas) and there great civilisation crubled due to there folly. As will ours sooner or later.
My 2 cents worth.
Elapid
04-08-2010, 03:50 PM
quote:Originally posted by Cruisecontrol
quote:[
Well, you will never get that from HOS. He has never let facts get in the way of his opinions...
No shit Sherlock. Sorry Dan, couldn't help myself.
Kris.
Shadowzone
04-08-2010, 06:00 PM
I'm a Christian. I attend church every Sunday. I'm proud to do so. I have my faith and I believe. I get that in this day and age, giving a day to worship an unseen omnipotent being is considered outdated, old fashioned, unnecessary and the like, but it suits me to do so. I don't get upset when people question my beliefs, they have the right to not believe, as much as I have the right to believe. If someone posts some anti Christian stuff on here (as is fairly common)I choose to ignore it. I have studied Islam and it teaches peace and love and defence of your family only when under attack. The radicals of Islam have decided that Western Culture with its sex filled music lyrics and smutty TV and Movies is an attack on their culture. Ergo they are justified in defending themselves and their family from the onslaught of the infidel.
Islam and Mainstream Christianity are both similar in their teachings, yet Muslims tend to be far far more devout than the average Christian. Then again Christianity has been perverted far far too much over the yrs by those with their own ideas and desires such as Martin Luther King, King Edward etc;
At the end of the day it comes to down to respect for others. I'll respect your right not to believe on the condition you respect my right to believe...
Take a long hard look around the world at ethnic cleansing and mass genocide because someone reckons their religion is better than another.
Take a long hard look at Africa and eastern Europe ? Congo, Sudan,
Darfur, Croatia, Slovakia, India and Pakistan ? People who are butchering each other, killing and raping women and children in the name of Christianity and Islam.
Makes me puke !
That isnt good or being close to God, that is pure latent evil !
Take another hard look at the Catholic church ? I do`nt want to even start on that poisonous corporation.
Look at Zionism ? The whole shitpile of the middle east.
How about the war on Islam ? Perpetuated by the Zionists !
Too many haters [xx(][xx(][xx(]
The issue is the survival of the human race and not what colour skin, not what langauge you speak or what badge of religion you wear.
I am no religionist, why put your name in support of all the above ?
Decency comes from within not from a badge !
Its about your basic humanity, decency and having a conscience, humility and being prepared to stand up and protect the vulnerable. Not shoot and fucking rape them !
You don`t need a badge to tell other people you possess those qualities and strengths.
I do`nt need a badge to say Im` fuckin human ;)
I don`t need some get out of hell free card.
RevHead
04-08-2010, 08:18 PM
hey islam teachs terrism ,these fuckers have been killin people since the 6th century,send em back to the desert and nuke em
[quote]Originally posted by Shadowzone
I'm a Christian. I attend church every Sunday. I'm proud to do so. I have my faith and I believe. I get that in this day and age, giving a day to worship an unseen omnipotent being is considered outdated, old fashioned, unnecessary and the like, but it suits me to do so. I don't get upset when people question my beliefs, they have the right to not believe, as much as I have the right to believe. If someone posts some anti Christian stuff on here (as is fairly common)I choose to ignore it. I have studied Islam and it teaches peace and love and defence of your family only when under attack. The radicals of Islam have decided that Western Culture with its sex filled music lyrics and smutty TV and Movies is an attack on their culture. Ergo they are justified in defending themselves and their family from the onslaught of the infidel.
Islam and Mainstream Christianity are both similar in their teachings, yet Muslims tend to be far far more devout than the average Christian. Then again Christianity has been perverted far far too much over the yrs by those with their own ideas and desires such as Martin Luther King, King Edward etc;
At the end of the day it comes to down to respect for others. I'll respect your right not to believe on the condition you respect my right to believe...
I agree with 95% of that and always respect other peoples faiths and beliefs.
Religion has always been hijacked by too many politically and financialy motivated groups and individuals and still is.
Right from the early days of England and the Royal Family. Way before Australia became a collony. When in England the crown, government and the church became one. That was when the rot set in.
People like me were turned away from religion in childhood by seeing the way faith has been corrupted and polluted by the power mongers to the point of the meaning having been lost.
When God said the weak would inherit the earth (Sorry if the words arent quite correct)., he didnt mean those who are weak and pathetic with a big chip on their shoulders would control and dominate the rest of the world. ;):)
Cruisecontrol
04-08-2010, 08:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Take a long hard look around the world at ethnic cleansing and mass genocide because someone reckons their religion is better than another.
Take a long hard look at Africa and eastern Europe ? Congo, Sudan,
Darfur, Croatia, Slovakia, India and Pakistan ? People who are butchering each other, killing and raping women and children in the name of Christianity and Islam.
You seem to be confusing religion with ethnicity.
Mindless patriotism has killed more people than religion ever will.
quote:Originally posted by Cruisecontrol
quote:Originally posted by Jup
But again, I'd love to see some objective research and data presented
Well, you will never get that from HOS. He has never let facts get in the way of his opinions...
Do you copy and paste your dumb comments every time ?
quote:Originally posted by Cruisecontrol
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Take a long hard look around the world at ethnic cleansing and mass genocide because someone reckons their religion is better than another.
Take a long hard look at Africa and eastern Europe ? Congo, Sudan,
Darfur, Croatia, Slovakia, India and Pakistan ? People who are butchering each other, killing and raping women and children in the name of Christianity and Islam.
You seem to be confusing religion with ethnicity.
Mindless patriotism has killed more people than religion ever will.
Religion, ethnicity, colour of skin, race or gender, all the same excuses for haters.
Redmohawk
04-08-2010, 08:42 PM
Sorry to tell you pete but islam has non violent teachings generally in the Koran, its the mad fuckers in power that corupt it in the name of religion when their really just interested in creating a dictatorship. And the people like the Yanks in power are keen to continue this as it de-stabilises the region and continues there ajenda. They only focust there attention on America and its allies once America was caught out fucking with it all.
If anything christianity has done just as much negative stuff in the past, and continues to do so in some ways. Christian aid to 3rd world countrys for instance , yes they help people , if those people go to a chrisian church and accept christian values etc etc otherwise you starve. Educating people is great but at the expence of distroying there heratige and previous life is just wrong, before all the do gooders jump in and "Say thats not true we do great good" I challenge you to go have a look with your own eyes, My eyes were opened a while back and don't wish to see what I saw with my own eyes ever again. Better to walk away and let them die than to continue what is happening atm I think.
rod185651
04-08-2010, 08:44 PM
quote:Originally posted by Redmohawk
Ra
Personally I lean towards Buddhism as a more balanced form of faith, But I'm an omnivore As I have incisors and like to use them!
My 2 cents worth.
Buddhist monks are neither veg nor non vegetarian they accept whatever they are given. Even the Dalai Lama consumes meat.
We traditionally had enough internal issues when it was majority English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish hundreds of years ago on this
very, very small island. We`ve always been a bunch of syco`s living in this cramped little place.
Throwing in hundreds of different cultures, attitudes and beliefs to the melting pot was never logistically going to be successful or happy.
We have a divided society where cultural isolation is the norm.
Look at France, Germany who all have the same or greater issues with enclaves of different and often lawless cultures and societies.
Bhuddism is a system of belief and learning and its good.
As you know it isnt a religion, its based on tolerance and understanding.
[8D]
quote:Originally posted by Redmohawk
Sorry to tell you pete but islam has non violent teachings generally in the Koran, its the mad fuckers in power that corupt it in the name of religion when their really just interested in creating a dictatorship. And the people like the Yanks in power are keen to continue this as it de-stabilises the region and continues there ajenda. They only focust there attention on America and its allies once America was caught out fucking with it all.
If anything christianity has done just as much negative stuff in the past, and continues to do so in some ways. Christian aid to 3rd world countrys for instance , yes they help people , if those people go to a chrisian church and accept christian values etc etc otherwise you starve. Educating people is great but at the expence of distroying there heratige and previous life is just wrong, before all the do gooders jump in and "Say thats not true we do great good" I challenge you to go have a look with your own eyes, My eyes were opened a while back and don't wish to see what I saw with my own eyes ever again. Better to walk away and let them die than to continue what is happening atm I think.
Yeah forcing western "democracy" really helped a lot of countries.
A whole load of cultures were getting on fine until they had to have education, western ideals and western goods.
Was`nt that the whole intention to expand the consumer base ? ;)
Western Democracy : any choice you like as long as its one of ours. :D
Cruisecontrol
04-08-2010, 08:56 PM
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Do you copy and paste your dumb comments every time ?
And I was sure you did the same, as your retarded spelling mistakes never change along with your baseless drivel.
Lol HOS, it's "meek", not "weak", and they're not even nearly the same in meaning, but your basic statement is true enough.
From what I understand of human nature (all theological discussion aside) people simply do not tolerate having their freedom imposed upon without their consent. And this is exactly what is conspicuous amongst the general understanding of the major religions - including Buddhism.
That, and the fear of the unknown, and risk of extremism in all aspects of life, all add up to an environment of distrust. Even pure naturalists have their dangerous fanatics.
Large
04-08-2010, 09:18 PM
quote:Originally posted by Redmohawk
Sorry to tell you pete but islam has non violent teachings generally in the Koran, its the mad fuckers in power that corupt it in the name of religion when their really just interested in creating a dictatorship. And the people like the Yanks in power are keen to continue this as it de-stabilises the region and continues there ajenda. They only focust there attention on America and its allies once America was caught out fucking with it all.
If anything christianity has done just as much negative stuff in the past, and continues to do so in some ways. Christian aid to 3rd world countrys for instance , yes they help people , if those people go to a chrisian church and accept christian values etc etc otherwise you starve. Educating people is great but at the expence of distroying there heratige and previous life is just wrong, before all the do gooders jump in and "Say thats not true we do great good" I challenge you to go have a look with your own eyes, My eyes were opened a while back and don't wish to see what I saw with my own eyes ever again. Better to walk away and let them die than to continue what is happening atm I think.
As far as I understand the teachings of the goatfuckers...there is two Qurans. As a non believer/infidel you will only ever see the nicer version (or the nice interpretation).
These cunts are coming for you and your rights as a human.
[:0]
Shadowzone
04-08-2010, 09:22 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
Even pure naturalists have their dangerous fanatics.
Just look at the Green Parties website and see the poison and rubbish spread through there in their basic ideals.
I tend to look at my religion like this - It preaches love, tolerance, and trying to be Christlike in all aspects of my day to day life. Christ didn't always turn the other cheek, look at what he did in the Temple. There is a time to stand and deliver and a time to walk away. It's learning the difference which is the key. And if being a better man is a bad thing then so is my religion. At the end of the day it comes back to Mahatma Ghandi - Be the change you want to see in the world. I'm trying Are you?
nick76
04-08-2010, 09:29 PM
quote:Originally posted by Large
As far as I understand the teachings of the goatfuckers...there is two Qurans. As a non believer/infidel you will only ever see the nicer version (or the nice interpretation).
These cunts are coming for you and your rights as a human.
[:0]
Watch this, i think its fuckin scary. In 30,40,50yrs time, the world will be a totally different place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
There are people who say they are (eg) xtian and then there's those who actually ARE xtian. People who wear the label and think it gives them some kind of respect from others for being so.... whereas there are those who do attend church, do xtian things and live in accordance to the ideals of that faith. Kudos to them because in my experience, they are few and far between. People who walk their talk get my respect.
I'm pagan, raised c of e and friends with people of all walks of life. I read on one bike forum this week that people who ride streetfighters are mulleted idiot thugs. That core ignorance, placed in any social group/situation will grow to something ugly. So it's good to see, such a diverse x-section of society here. Ignorance and fear leads the mob with pitchforks.
Bhudism is a religion, same as the other main 5. But it's not dogmatic like xtianity and islam. Anyways, there is always some egomanic out there who'll use religion to their own ends. They are called fanatics - they are a minority in any religion/faith. So it does my goat to always read bad things about islam when like someone already said, it doesn't promote terrorism. If you look in any religious text, there are plenty of bit about peace and war. I'm sure anyone who has read the old testament will agree that god was wrathful and did some nasty shit to punish the non believer.... but then it was all about peace. It's there in any old religon.
Paganism is older than all of them but it's not a religion, it's a way of life, a belief of living in sync with the seasons and if you look at any xtian festival, it mirrors pagan ones. The church of rome decided in 400ad that even though christ was born in feb/march that there were too many festivals in december (27) and decided to have one day, in conjuction with the solstice and call it xmas. To make the transition of assimulation easier, they used old celtic worship places (wells, hill tops, rivers etc) to build their new churches. They used the old customs and integrated them to their own..... and that was less than 2000 years ago.
Look at all the people who have visited our countries and made a change (romans, vikings, saxons etc). Look at your country - an indiginous culture, over run by people dumping off their unwanted criminals. Pommie is prisoner of mother england... these things change our culture forever - that negative part of our pasts is now part of your vocab. But that's not how i see oz. I see it as a richly diverse country, made of many differnt tribes from around the world. Of course there are those who will abuse that open door... it happens everywhere. If I could come to oz for a new life, hell yeah, I would - how would I be any differnt to the other immigrants? Is it the colour of skin - where they live - their relgion? No one likes their country invaded. But if you look to why everyone wants to move to the uk or oz, then you see that their own country is in shit order, often relgious wars/factions.... it's just more intense than it's been in the past. Damned right that it should be stemmed, because no one wants to feel like an imposter in their own country.
Sorry for the essay... it's just something I'm passionate about. Ignorance breeds fear and that is a dangerous thing.
rod185651
04-08-2010, 09:53 PM
Those Pagan Rituals always look more exciting then Church on a Sunday
Tony OW31
04-08-2010, 10:35 PM
Couple of mates back in the uk (brothers)late 20's pretty fucked up lads, drinking and doing drugs every night, couldn't keep a job for more than a few months etc went to see an evangelist (might have been Benny Hinn) or someone like him.
They said they where going to take the piss and generally cause trouble, but they both had a 'moment'. Completely changed them both overnight, when I say overnight, I mean literally overnight. no more drink/drugs, started doing charity work etc settled down, got proper jobs, 20 yrs on and they're still in to it.
Seemed to work for them,
quote:Originally posted by Jup
Lol HOS, it's "meek", not "weak", and they're not even nearly the same in meaning, but your basic statement is true enough.
From what I understand of human nature (all theological discussion aside) people simply do not tolerate having their freedom imposed upon without their consent. And this is exactly what is conspicuous amongst the general understanding of the major religions - including Buddhism.
That, and the fear of the unknown, and risk of extremism in all aspects of life, all add up to an environment of distrust. Even pure naturalists have their dangerous fanatics.
I think we both know what each other means ;)
I was in Sparkbrook in Birmingham last month stocking up on some pulses and rice and shit in one of those massive Muslim supermarkets like you do..... when the Muslim shop owner came over and accosted me ! [:0]
Poor fucker thought he could talk to me and convert me to Islam ! ??
If you knew me in person you`d die laughing. :D
After an hour of listening to this guy and his narrow and filtered (indocrinated) view on the physical and spiritual world we live in, his are exaclty the same as the western orthodox views: narrow and filtered.
We talked and I was respectful because I genuinely wanted to hear his point of view.
But its totally obvious they are conditioned just the same as any other westener into a system of belief. Even those who are not religious are still conditioned into a system, of belief usually the new self proclaimed "religion" called Science.
I do like a fucken good Balti but me ? Islamic ? [:o)][:p]:D
JUP,
Fear is the most powerful control tool and a well used one.
People are intentionally held in a lack of knowledge and understanding because it generates fear.
The only thing people really fear is what they don`t know about.
Denial of knowledge to the population is the key to fear and control.
But my belief is there is nothing we are not capable of knowing.
Even the most complex ideas and concepts can be understood in simple terms aka Dr Steven Hawkins. ?
Ok.... so fear is fed to us via the media. They will make it seem like the end of the world - like bird flu, swineflu, terrorist threats, recession, jobless.... you name it, if it sells their rag, they will heighten the countries axiety with these over inflated stories.
It's propaganda. Look beyond the bullshit words and go on the street and see what it's really about. Has it affected people you know, places you live or are you basing your opinions on what you've read? Fair enough if you've got personal experience and i'm sure there is some truth in the hype. From my experience, the muslims I worked with lived in a shitty room in Bedford, worked 12+ hours a day for less than min wage and sent most of their money home to their wife and kids in Pakistan. They are not people that have come here to claim benefits or council houses, they are men trying to feed their starving families. However, there are many who do abuse our countries generosity and it's our own stupid governments fault for being so fucking politically correct. Perhaps we wouldn't be in such a financial crisis if they hadn't been giving 6 bed homes to immigrants etc etc etc.
HOS - I am shocked. An hour.. and you listened to it all? I reckon you secretly enjoyed it lol I went to my doctor for a blood pressure test, and what should have taken 5 mins, took 45mins cos he was bible bashing me! I changed my doctor after that and a few people have said the same. Anyways, make me a karhi mate - extra coriandor
quote:Originally posted by NoZ
Ok.... so fear is fed to us via the media. They will make it seem like the end of the world - like bird flu, swineflu, terrorist threats, recession, jobless.... you name it, if it sells their rag, they will heighten the countries axiety with these over inflated stories. What the media say and what actually appears in threat assessments are very different. Yes there is a threat and we have to be aware... but the muslim threat has only replaced the last one... or don't people remember the nail bombs in the 80s?
It's propaganda. Look beyond the bullshit words and go on the street and see what it's really about. Has it affected people you know, places you live or are you basing your opinions on what you've read? Fair enough if you've got personal experience and i'm sure there is some truth in the hype. From my experience, the muslims I worked with lived in a shitty room in Bedford, worked 12+ hours a day for less than min wage and sent most of their money home to their wife and kids in Pakistan. They are not people that have come here to claim benefits or council houses, they are men trying to feed their starving families. However, there are many who do abuse our countries generosity and it's our own stupid governments fault for being so fucking politically correct. Perhaps we wouldn't be in such a financial crisis if they hadn't been giving 6 bed homes to immigrants etc etc etc.
HOS - I am shocked. An hour.. and you listened to it all? I reckon you secretly enjoyed it lol I went to my doctor for a blood pressure test, and what should have taken 5 mins, took 45mins cos he was bible bashing me! I changed my doctor after that and a few people have said the same. Anyways, make me a karhi mate - extra coriandor
quote:Originally posted by NoZ
Ok.... so fear is fed to us via the media. They will make it seem like the end of the world - like bird flu, swineflu, terrorist threats, recession, jobless.... you name it, if it sells their rag, they will heighten the countries axiety with these over inflated stories.
It's propaganda. Look beyond the bullshit words and go on the street and see what it's really about. Has it affected people you know, places you live or are you basing your opinions on what you've read? Fair enough if you've got personal experience and i'm sure there is some truth in the hype. From my experience, the muslims I worked with lived in a shitty room in Bedford, worked 12+ hours a day for less than min wage and sent most of their money home to their wife and kids in Pakistan. They are not people that have come here to claim benefits or council houses, they are men trying to feed their starving families. However, there are many who do abuse our countries generosity and it's our own stupid governments fault for being so fucking politically correct. Perhaps we wouldn't be in such a financial crisis if they hadn't been giving 6 bed homes to immigrants etc etc etc.
HOS - I am shocked. An hour.. and you listened to it all? I reckon you secretly enjoyed it lol I went to my doctor for a blood pressure test, and what should have taken 5 mins, took 45mins cos he was bible bashing me! I changed my doctor after that and a few people have said the same. Anyways, make me a karhi mate - extra coriandor
He gave me a speshull Islam CD to take home wiv me [:p]
Mines a balti chicken tikka with eggs served extra spicey..... Ahhhhh..... more dangerous than Corexit !! Oh ... and a table naan ! :D
NoZ, how far are you from Wellingborough ?
Talking about curry, we found the most excellent pure vegetarian curry house ;) Daft as it may sound, proper veggie curry houses are very rare.
This one is fukkin ace !! Gobsmacked at the food they make ! and it aint silly money either. [:p]
Wellingborough um not far enough? hahahahaha I'm about 40-50 miles away. I used to work as a driver for a curry place, ended up cooking most of it... lovely! [8D]
quote:Originally posted by HOS
JUP,
Fear is the most powerful control tool and a well used one.
People are intentionally held in a lack of knowledge and understanding because it generates fear.
The only thing people really fear is what they don`t know about.
Denial of knowledge to the population is the key to fear and control.
But my belief is there is nothing we are not capable of knowing.
Even the most complex ideas and concepts can be understood in simple terms aka Dr Steven Hawkins. ?
Interesting and true, but I think you're confusing what the catholic church did in the dark ages with what it means to actually know (the)God (of the bible).
Jesus never taught us to rule over one another, He taught us to serve each other. He never taught us to live in fear, He taught us to be joyful and free.
I love science because it reveals the wonder of creation, there is no commandment to be ignorant or fearfull, and I'm a huge fan of Dr. Hawkins too for the same reason: he delights in the wonder of the universe, and makes it easy to understand for simpletons like me.
We could spend/waste years discussing the evils committed by those charged to care for others, but it would be fruitless, and they will answer for their actions anyway. We could also spend/waste time covering the "wrath of God" in the old testament etc, but I'd rather live it, and show it (as Noz said) than just preach it.
I hadn't intended to get involved in the "my god's bigger than your god" side of this discussion, I'm only trying to address statements made that display a clear misunderstanding of the subject.
And I'd still love to see that data I requested, because nobody should be kept in ignorance of the truth.
The Truth is what eludes everyone on numerous fundamental issues.
If you want the truth it is far from religious versions of events and even further away from the orthodox scientific version of events ;) Although there are elements of truth in each and every one.
The Catholic church is preparing itself for revelation of alien life (other intelligent species) in our universe. No doubt deep within the Anglican church they are preparing too.
Truth my mate, involves the understanding of the interaction of science, religion and alien life here on earth over thousands of years. That is the basis of truth and the denial of that knowledge is used to create [u]fear.</u>
Large
05-08-2010, 08:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
quote:Originally posted by HOS
JUP,
Fear is the most powerful control tool and a well used one.
People are intentionally held in a lack of knowledge and understanding because it generates fear.
The only thing people really fear is what they don`t know about.
Denial of knowledge to the population is the key to fear and control.
But my belief is there is nothing we are not capable of knowing.
Even the most complex ideas and concepts can be understood in simple terms aka Dr Steven Hawkins. ?
Interesting and true, but I think you're confusing what the catholic church did in the dark ages with what it means to actually know (the)God (of the bible).
I wonder if in another 1 - 200 years we will be referred to as the dark ages because of what the dirty child fuckers in charge of the catholic church are still up to...?
quote:Jesus never taught us to rule over one another, He taught us to serve each other. He never taught us to live in fear, He taught us to be joyful and free.
lol yeah no fire and brimstone from this pulpit... When knowledge was scarce, the church used fear to control the population, yet now that anyone can acess the truth, the church pews are emptying....funny that.
Also a bit funny how they're fighting tooth and nail to stop ethics being teached in school as an option to religeon.
quote:I love science because it reveals the wonder of creation, there is no commandment to be ignorant or fearfull, and I'm a huge fan of Dr. Hawkins too for the same reason: he delights in the wonder of the universe, and makes it easy to understand for simpletons like me.
I love religeon because it's the ultimate fairytale combining elements of Jack and the Beanstalk, Pinocchio and Rumpelstiltskin with the tactics used by the type of companies that target their advertising for daytime tv and cold calling, while supporting thje ethics of snakeoil sellers like benny hinn.
quote:We could spend/waste years discussing the evils committed by those charged to care for others, but it would be fruitless, and they will answer for their actions anyway. We could also spend/waste time covering the "wrath of God" in the old testament etc, but I'd rather live it, and show it (as Noz said) than just preach it.
We need to spend years discussing the evils comitted by the cunts in charge of the church...because they are still happening...unless you are on the side of the nazi pope and his cronies and are prepared to deny everything?
quote:I hadn't intended to get involved in the "my god's bigger than your god" side of this discussion, I'm only trying to address statements made that display a clear misunderstanding of the subject.
Any god with the powers he is claimed to have...yet without the will to act against the cunts who use his name to further their agenda (in any form) is pretty much a waste of time. Maybe he should be demoted to a lessor god like one of the lower hindu deities...?
quote:And I'd still love to see that data I requested, because nobody should be kept in ignorance of the truth.
Like the church has being doing to it's adherants for a coupla thousand years or so...?
Although harsh, Large is correct in his summary.
But I'd say that Jup follows his faith... and as I recently found out from an Anglican Vicar, he left the church because of it's not what it should be... it's become something truely dogmatic and bad. He still believes in the messages of christ and loves god but choses to expand his knowledge base with the nature based spiritual path. He misses being a vicar but loathes the church. I have to agree... I see the good behind the original messages have been used and corrupted to meet the churches own greed. And throughout history, they really have gone to town with controlling the masses with fear. I don't think there's a single decade in recorded history that hasn't got a horror story about the roman catholic church.
The pope is a hitler youth ffs! They've turned a blind eye to their priest systamatically raping kids; they reject contraception and therefore promote the evil of diseases such as aids... the church is fucked up, rich and corrupt to the core. But that is not to say that there aren't good people who follow that faith, who live their lives by the good of the messages taught by christ. They don't run the church, if they did, it wouldn't be so twisted.
I saw this program on nat geo about how they thought JC had faked his death, gone off to India and started Islam. They reckon they found the tomb with him and Mary Magdalane... that would be so cool if that was true. There's a fair few people who reckon he was druid-like too. But with the church controlling their version of history and the bible, we can only know what we are told.
Apply all of this to Islam and it's virtually the same. The xtremists in Ireland thought it and fought back. Terrorists often have fanatacal religious views. Be it Catholic v's Prosestant(Ireland); Church v's Islam (such as the crusades); Islam v's Hindus (very bloody battles in their own countries) or Islam extremists agains the evils of the west.... it's all bullshit reasons for bloodshed. Religion has been behind some of the most henious atrocities in history.... but people should have faith. They just shouldn't have dogmatic blind following of something inherently evil to the core. Suppose what I'm saying is stop being sheep. Stop believing every bullshit survey, story, report you read in our papers or what the gov/church tell you. Read between the lines and make YOUR own minds up to what really is going on.
MTBEERWAH
05-08-2010, 09:04 PM
So what percentage of the population of the world actually witnessed these so called persons GOD & JESUS? and when was the first cut of the bible actually written?
I don`t mind watching the odd doco on SBS & ABC, correct me if i`m wrong as i basically no nothing about the subject as i`m not a devotee to the cause, but after watching one particular doco on the subject of the good book, it was said the book,bible if you will, was not written until about 100AD,and until that point,it was all hand me down information from stories around the table after a good meal. Now 100AD hey(If thats true), you no what its like if you get 20 people in a room, and tell 1 person a story,and pass it on,so on and so forth,when it gets back to old mate who stated the story, its way off key.
So once again, how many people actally witnessed this so called event which has convinced the world and changed peoples lives to believe in this event?
nick76
05-08-2010, 09:26 PM
Im not for religion. Alot of my family,and earlier generations were taken away through religous bs.
People can think whatever they want. I don't care. I just hate it when people try and force it apon me.
As for MTBEERWAHS comment,who did actually witness this?? The book couldve been written on chinese whispers.
I've upset more than my fair share of churchies, by saying, who the fuck can feed 2000 people with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread, or whatever it was he did.
I tell them God/Jesus was just way ahead of his time,maybe he was the David Coperfield of 2000yrs ago!!!
I don't think they like that,but im only taking the piss,maybe....
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1281043344.jpg
I`m wearing one of my favourite T-shirts today :)
St George flag on the front and these words written across the flag:
IF YOU DON`T
LIKE MY LAWS AND
MY CUSTOMS
GET THE FUCK
OUT OF MY
COUNTRY.
http://farcanal.biz/catalog/
Bible was written 70 years after JC died. It was started off by a certified nutjob (no he really was mad). It was rewritten by monks, translated from one language to another and it is said they were tripping their nuts off on mouldy bread, bad lighting and mis-translated loads of it. It was then rewritten by King James, which is the current version.
I think the film Dogma nailed it really.
The only bit worthy of addressing:
quote:Originally posted by Large
quote:Jesus never taught us to rule over one another, He taught us to serve each other. He never taught us to live in fear, He taught us to be joyful and free.
lol yeah no fire and brimstone from this pulpit... When knowledge was scarce, the church used fear to control the population, yet now that anyone can acess the truth, the church pews are emptying....funny that.
Also a bit funny how they're fighting tooth and nail to stop ethics being teached in school as an option to religeon.
1: Not my pulpit. I'm not preaching here, and I'm going to great lengths to be respectful of averyone elses beliefs, including those without them. I challenge you to find one member that I have approached with the purpose of preaching at them
In fact I respect that the pagans/buddhists/athiests have chosen what makes sense to them, and have had the courage to stand by it, it's all I've done. You wouldn't want me to be a hypocrite would you?[
2: The organised religions pews are emptying because their congregation can now freely access the information for themselves, you're absolutely right. But they're now filling the pews of the smaller churches who have stuck to the true message - and those congregations are experiencing massive growth. Funny that.
3: "Religious education" is already an optional class in most schools, and as far as I'm aware an "ethics" class would be welcomed as every christian I know believes that the place for religious education is either at home or in church.
I'm not here trying to convince anyone that any particular (a)theism is right or wrong, I'm only calling bullshit on "facts" that have been presented on page 1 of this thread.
As to "when was the bible written", NoZ almost has it right. The gospels written by the apostles themselves date to no later than 30-40 years after Jesus death, also Pauls letters. The confusion is in the dating. I'm sure Noz's research led him to find the books written about 60-70A.D. but "A.D." doesn't begin at Jesus death, Jesus was actually about 6 years old at 1 A.D. It's an understandable mistake.
Can we kick someone else now? Anyone who really wants to discuss my faith is welcome to join the christian forum where I am a member (http://www.thewaythetruth.com/forums/) and we can stop boring all these nice people. Either way, unless someone wants to answer my simple questions about the "facts" persented earlier, I'm done.
Cruisecontrol
06-08-2010, 05:47 PM
Kudos mate.
I may not agree with your faith but I can't help but admire your ability to defend it without an ounce of animosity. :)
Large
06-08-2010, 08:51 PM
Science takes man to the moon.
Religion flies planes into buildings.
Yeah, definitely kudos Jup. No, please don't be a hypocrite, I hate hypocrites - which is why I left the church as a child.
I watched a series on tv about the bible and this black guy called Mark, who was a theologan and someone who studied it, went to the places where the apostle wrote the first gospels and he said it was 70 years after JC had died. I questioned it because of the life expectancy of people in those days and also the guy was nuts. Alot of those gospels were written as speculation of 2nd/3rd hand accounts. Either way, it's a collection of stories and moral lessons to follow. It's your book and I won't diss your right to take from it what you will. It's not much different to the celtic mythology that I enjoy reading. It was written at the time and then translated and rewritten by the church. So it's been twisted to what they wanted you to read, rather than the savages lol.
This is why my dad says not to talk about football, religion or politics in pubs... and this is like a pub. Lets not fall out over something that didn't matter last week. You can be a born again xtian and have a wicked fighter and be a hooligan when you're not in church... does it matter? Not in my book !
quote:Originally posted by NoZ
Bible was written 70 years after JC died. It was started off by a certified nutjob (no he really was mad). It was rewritten by monks, translated from one language to another and it is said they were tripping their nuts off on mouldy bread, bad lighting and mis-translated loads of it. It was then rewritten by King James, which is the current version.
I think the film Dogma nailed it really.
That about sums Christianity up.
A pile of random events that may or may not have happened, bull`d up and sexed up and then cobbled together to form a system of power and control aka Christianity and its Bible.
As you say its been rewritten so many times to update its control base to fit more modern times.
Thats why the "Crown" took over the Church hundreds of years ago, they saw it as a great tool for control to have in its royal hands.
The Bible is such a bad "cut and paste" job, its a complete nonsensical mess.
The pews are emptying in the UK for no more simple a reason than people have been turning their back on the Chritsian Church for decades.
People are sick to death of religion whichever badge of office. That is what this thread is all about.
Anglican church is ripping its guts out over ordination of female clergy. That arcane view towards women is utter bollox [xx(]
Male domination of Religion, Government, Freemasons, financial institutions, etc.... work it out.
The Catholic Church, another branch of Christianity is about as Christian as my fucking arse after 12 pints of Stella and a chicken Phall !
Like I said, the guy I know who is a vicar is anti-church but not anti-xtian - he still loves his faith. It's the church, not the faith that is the problem, well in the church of england one anyway. Roman Catholic church is very different and just beyond comprehension to me... RC is the original church of Christ Hos you doofus lol... but you are right - they lost the way centuries ago. Actually JC was a jew. The new faith used to hide and leave fish symbols in the sand and get thrown the lions if they got caught. Then they grew and grew and tried to take over the world. Which is what you think islam is doing... so why is it good for the church but not islam? Both derive from the same part of the world ffs... JC wasn't white with blonde hair and blue eyes! He was a raghead...! His followers went out into the world and tried to convert the masses - and succeeded. The vikings converted to xtianity to help with trade... so fast forward a thousand years and here we are.
Every single country has been invaded and influenced by the new blood. When the national dish of the Uk is a chicken tikka masala (which doesn't exist in real indian cooking) then the transition has already happened. On the otherside of the coin - would any of you do the jobs that these illegals do for the money they get paid? Or do you just enjoy the food when it turns up when you've ordered it?
Nailed it there HOS - male domination of a religion = power. Oh and history is a pile of random events...and that's been rewritten many times to suit those in power. Why should a holy book be any different? what is the truth? only how you perceive it to be right?
TurboKat
06-08-2010, 11:24 PM
Let us praise God...
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1281104929.jpg
bluemk1
07-08-2010, 12:29 AM
there are many gods, here is another.........
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1281142627.jpg
oh yes! rossi is god... and so is kevin smith, clint langley, terry pratchett, stan lee and my dad [8D]
quote:Originally posted by Large
Science takes man to the moon.
Religion flies planes into buildings.
ooooooooooo that's a goodun :D
bwahahaha! when i first looked into the thread it was re-chewing the fucking immies' shite :D
now its turned into re-chewing the religious bullshit, er? [}:)]
like Bon Scott sang 'practice wat u preach' /and he was a god/ then u'l get at least some respect for wat u do... all ur fucking christian humility piety and not a ounce of hostility r just cheap double dealing tricks u used to lead crusades now u just prefer to abet to manipulate minds and after all, dont u see or just pretending not to see that any religion or cult is a 100% profitable business that sells shit for gold [?] :D
quote:Originally posted by Jup
I'm sure anyone on this forum who's met me in person could assure you that I'm one of those "religious people" that you could tolerate: If you want to know, ask, otherwise I'll just join in the fun.
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Biggest global wipe outs and genocides have been in the name of whatever God or God substitute figure.
But I'm calling bullshit on that statement, here's the facts:
"A compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to include religious elements. So, what our atheist friends often tell us is "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.
Taking a similar line, John P Conway in his article War and Religion: Is Religion to Blame? concludes:
it becomes apparent that those who make the claim "religion has been the cause of more wars than any other factor in history" may speak from ignorance or have ulterior motives for the assertion.
Conway's article is well worth reading.
Particularly thought-provoking is a paper presented at the University of Melbourne in 2006 by William T Cavanaugh in which he also challenges the generalities clung to by atheists and their sympathisers.
(All of which is NOT to say that the Church has never been wrong and that Christians have not inflicted suffering . . . it is just a plea that we allow the facts to inform our debates, and get things in proportion.) "
If you've got data to support your claim I'd love to be corrected!
u just forgot to mention mate that every war was blessed by priests from the both sides so every war in ur list was the holy war?
SHOOT!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5D-mIfR9F8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qNrgQbOE60&feature=related
well Lemmy is god either... but wtf HE cant remove warts? [:o)]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnJ7hmhjPQA&feature=fvw
[8D]
ah, Lemmy, one of the gods I forgot to add to my list... trust Motorhead to answer all life's questions
Large
07-08-2010, 09:48 AM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
I'm sure anyone on this forum who's met me in person could assure you that I'm one of those "religious people" that you could tolerate: If you want to know, ask, otherwise I'll just join in the fun.
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Biggest global wipe outs and genocides have been in the name of whatever God or God substitute figure.
But I'm calling bullshit on that statement, here's the facts:
"A compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to include religious elements. So, what our atheist friends often tell us is "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.
Taking a similar line, John P Conway in his article War and Religion: Is Religion to Blame? concludes:
it becomes apparent that those who make the claim "religion has been the cause of more wars than any other factor in history" may speak from ignorance or have ulterior motives for the assertion.
Conway's article is well worth reading.
Particularly thought-provoking is a paper presented at the University of Melbourne in 2006 by William T Cavanaugh in which he also challenges the generalities clung to by atheists and their sympathisers.
(All of which is NOT to say that the Church has never been wrong and that Christians have not inflicted suffering . . . it is just a plea that we allow the facts to inform our debates, and get things in proportion.) "
If you've got data to support your claim I'd love to be corrected!
Jup, firstly sorry about editing your post...I stuffed up when trying to quote you.
A few points.
1 You mention war and bring up some evidence. What about all the suffering- overpopulation/disease caused by the rule against using contraception? You don't need a book to know that's cost millions of lives and untold suffering in recent years.
2 After decades of denying there was a problem, the catholic church recently put out an edict that touching up children is now considered a crime against god (or something similar).
At the same time the church put out an edict that ordaining women priests was also a crime against god (again not sure of the exact wording), but basically saying they are both evils of equal nature.
3 I agree that places like Hillsong might be filling pews with their pop idol preaching, but yesterday I heard that 90% of kids that go to catholic schools never attend a mass after graduating.
Large
07-08-2010, 09:51 AM
Here you go-
Uproar over Vatican's grave crimes list
BARNEY ZWARTZ
July 17, 2010
Catholics around the world were shocked after the Vatican listed both the ordination of women and paedophile abuse by priests as "grave crimes".
The Vatican made some changes to the way it deals with clergy sexual abusers, which it said would promote rigour and transparency, but the same document of "grave crimes" now lists the attempted ordination of women as in the same category as a matter for excommunication.
"They've just stuffed it up again," a senior Melbourne Catholic, who did not want to be named, said. "It's a very long list of things that are not permissible, and we knew what they were, but to put women and paedophiles in the same document is ridiculous."
Charles Scicluna, the Vatican official who oversees abuse investigations, said the Vatican did not equate women's ordination with the sexual abuse of children. He said an illicit ordination was a "sacramental'' crime, while abuse was a ''moral'' crime.
But in linking them as it did, the Vatican ensured that the world's focus was not on the minor but laudable changes to its abuse protocols. The changes make it easier for the Vatican to remove abusers from the priesthood, make bishops more accountable, allow lay people to serve on church tribunals dealing with sex abuse cases, extend the statute of limitations on abuse cases from 10 to 20 years, and add possessing child pornography to the list of grave crimes.
"The Vatican is living in a parallel universe," the Australian Catholic commentator Paul Collins, a former priest, said yesterday.
"They live in a cosseted world isolated from ordinary Catholics and their actions, thoughts and feelings, and ordinary priests who are dealing with this issue all the time.
"It's spectacularly stupid and inopportune to link these two issues that have nothing to do with each other.''
Joelle Battestini, the co-convener of the Movement for the Ordination of Women, said it was ''shocking that in this day and age the Vatican could be so violent and public'' in its ''systemic sexism''.
The US-based Roman Catholic Women Priests wondered ''how answering a spiritual call to serve through priesthood could possibly be in the same category of 'sin' as paedophilia''.
''Instead of the many excommunications and condemnations the Vatican issues against women priests and their supporters, it would be better to take responsibility for the damaging behaviours of patriarchy especially the abuse of spiritual power.''
The Melbourne Archbishop, Denis Hart, said ordaining women was on the same document as clergy abuse because the second section dealt with offences against the sacraments, heresy, schism and apostasy.
He said the document detailed what the church regarded as serious and added the ordination of women . ''The church is merely clarifying its position.''
The National Council of Priests, which finished its annual meeting in Parramatta yesterday, held a reconciliation service on Thursday to express the shame Catholic priests felt over priests who abused, the council president, Ian McGinnity, said.
Father McGinnity, the parish priest at Quakers Hill, Parramatta, said the council discussed clergy abuse in depth, and the priests were very disappointed with the response of some Catholic leaders. However, he had not heard the Vatican announcement.
The spokeswoman of Survivors of Clergy Abuse Australia, Nicky Davis, criticised the "glacially slow rate" of progress and said the changes were a big disappointment and a "PR stunt".
http://www.smh.com.au/world/uproar-over-vaticans-grave-crimes-list-20100716-10e7t.html
Zooks
07-08-2010, 10:28 AM
quote:Originally posted by nick76
I like the last few lines of that story.
One said: "They have taken our country over, it's not England any more. We have to make changes to please them."
We'll be able to write that here shortly, and just change the "England" to Australia.
Funny how we,the majority(not sure for how much longer tho) have to change to help "them" assimilate, why the fuck don't they change to help assimilate into the country they are moving too??
Think about this statement from the view point of an aboriginal my friend and you'll realise that it already happened here. It started in 1788 and has been going on ever since.
Just saying. [8)]
Zooks
07-08-2010, 10:56 AM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
quote:Originally posted by HOS
Biggest global wipe outs and genocides have been in the name of whatever God or God substitute figure.
But I'm calling bullshit on that statement, here's the facts:
"A compilation of the history of human warfare, Encyclopedia of Wars by Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod documents 1763 wars, of which 123 have been classified to include religious elements. So, what our atheist friends often tell us is "most" really amounts to less than 7% of all wars. It is interesting to note that 66 of these wars (more than 50%) involved Islam, which did not even exist as a religion for the first 3,000 years of recorded human warfare.
Taking a similar line, John P Conway in his article War and Religion: Is Religion to Blame? concludes:
it becomes apparent that those who make the claim "religion has been the cause of more wars than any other factor in history" may speak from ignorance or have ulterior motives for the assertion.
Conway's article is well worth reading.
Particularly thought-provoking is a paper presented at the University of Melbourne in 2006 by William T Cavanaugh in which he also challenges the generalities clung to by atheists and their sympathisers.
(All of which is NOT to say that the Church has never been wrong and that Christians have not inflicted suffering . . . it is just a plea that we allow the facts to inform our debates, and get things in proportion.) "
If you've got data to support your claim I'd love to be corrected!
There are so many holes in your argument I don't know where to begin.
1) I'm kinda betting that not all the data exists for wars back more than a few hundred years. A lot of it would be heresay and folklore now. What happens to all those conflicts??
2) There's also a huge amount of times in history when religion and state were 'one and the same' - do those conficts get called political or religious??
3) How does one define religion? Is it merely a set of beliefs and doctrines to live by? If so, then aren't most wars started due to a difference of opinion in belief and doctrine??
4) Are we only talking formalised / organised religion or are the smaller indigenous belief systems also included? When one tribe goes over the hill (or the sea) with spears (or guns) in their hands, with the intention of wiping out their neighbours (because they think differently) is this religious??
This could go on forever. My point is that it really depends on how you classify things. If I tried hard enough I could argue that religion never started any wars. We all know that would be true BULLSHIT though!! ;)
Zooks
07-08-2010, 12:19 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hk41Gbjljfo
quote:Originally posted by Large
Jup, firstly sorry about editing your post...I stuffed up when trying to quote you.
A few points.
1 You mention war and bring up some evidence. What about all the suffering- overpopulation/disease caused by the rule against using contraception? You don't need a book to know that's cost millions of lives and untold suffering in recent years.
2 After decades of denying there was a problem, the catholic church recently put out an edict that touching up children is now considered a crime against god (or something similar).
At the same time the church put out an edict that ordaining women priests was also a crime against god (again not sure of the exact wording), but basically saying they are both evils of equal nature.
3 I agree that places like Hillsong might be filling pews with their pop idol preaching, but yesterday I heard that 90% of kids that go to catholic schools never attend a mass after graduating.
No worries mate, it's easily done.
I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned it in this thread, but I am strongly against organised religion, and the RCC specifically, so I agree whole heartedly with what you've just said.
Child tamperers need to be hung on meat hooks and castrated by their victims, and regardless of what is done to these bastards in this life, I believe (even if you don't) that they'll answer for it before their God too.
I also said I'd love to be corrected if anyone had information that could correct my understanding. You and others bring up very valid points to help me see the big picture. We can all agree that corrupt men throughout history have distorted all religions to enslave, torture and murder people over many thousands of years.
Thanks for taking the time to clear that up for me.
http://www.asfphotos.com/upload/1281181467.jpg
rejecting "rcc" dont u forget that it was founded by "saint" paul and is the only genuine nazarene institution?
quote:Originally posted by Surt
rejecting "rcc" dont u forget that it was founded by "saint" paul and is the only genuine nazarene institution?
If you believe the RCC, it was the apostle Peter who was declared the leader. If you believe the bible, it was not. If you believe neither, then it's kind of irrelevant what I believe isn't it?
As I said before, if you want to discuss my faith, come chat on the appropriate forum. I'm only here to talk shit with mates and learn about streetfightering bikes, and I only chimed in on this thread to clarify what I thought was an error, which has been resolved.
Shadowzone
07-08-2010, 07:54 PM
quote:Originally posted by Jup
quote:Originally posted by Surt
rejecting "rcc" dont u forget that it was founded by "saint" paul and is the only genuine nazarene institution?
If you believe the RCC, it was the apostle Peter who was declared the leader. If you believe the bible, it was not. If you believe neither, then it's kind of irrelevant what I believe isn't it?
As I said before, if you want to discuss my faith, come chat on the appropriate forum. I'm only here to talk shit with mates and learn about streetfightering bikes, and I only chimed in on this thread to clarify what I thought was an error, which has been resolved.
The Catholic Church, lost their way around 300AD when they held the Nicene Council and decided which books to include in the Bible and which ones <s> to hide from the general populace in order to further their monopoly on being the only means to finding God</s> weren't relevant in the Bible.
The Bible is also NOT compiled in chronological order which confuses a lot of people in todays society as they don't realise or understand this. It was compiled in the order of Canons.
But I agree JUP, We need to get away from the religious topic here and get back to talking about <s>fucking off the tupperware all the latte sipping fags and cocksucking metro homos love so much</s> Making our Bikes Nekkid because like women they look so much better that way...
peter or paul doesnt matter who i'm takin of rcc's priority while other 'branches' r schizmatics from the point of view :D quite easy to 'wash ones hands' saying its not my church that committed crimes against culture, history and humanity, it was 'lost souls' from rcc or greek ortodox or anglicans quakers, mormons etc? according to wat different confessions say or think of each other u all go to hell to be roasted along with atheists, moslems, buddists, pagans, satanists, fags and jews bwahaha!!! /sorry for those who wasnt mentioned/
and i'd really prefer to continue discussion on here and not on some fuckin jesus freaks forum i dont go there. also there r a few sections on here where ridding of tupperware to ladies and fags likings can be discussed
i'd also like to ask some questions to the so called believers just to try to understand their way of thinking and percepting the reality ;)
I`ve got some tupperwear I`d like to sell to laydeez and fhags ?
Can you tell me where to put it pliz ?
:D
hwo r u tokin to mr Shipston? [:p]
as for the nicaea counsil, they just tried to 'cleanse' the various versions of new testament having prohibited the ones that utterly didnt co-respond to the mainstream versions :D it also was the battlefield against arianism and other "apostasies" wasnt it? so the real outcome of the council was the hardening in the solid dogmatic totalitarian bullshit, er? [:p] it wasnt the council that had turned the rcc into congregation of scumbags they were ones from the beginning, the bunch of beggars whores poofs nohopers and all the human trash but their sermons out of sudden became very handy for the romanian authorities, after they washed their hands and got into what the sermons were about;) - humility, repentance, obeyance all the shippish crap [}:)]
Cruisecontrol
08-08-2010, 08:52 AM
quote:Originally posted by Surt
peter or paul doesnt matter who i'm takin of rcc's priority while other 'branches' r schizmatics from the point of view :D quite easy to 'wash ones hands' saying its not my church that committed crimes against culture, history and humanity, it was 'lost souls' from...
Interesting concept you have there. So no matter what you say or do you are inexorably linked to all things bad as long as there is a tenuous link somewhere.
As a Russian this means that you personally are one of the most evil people on the planet (based purely on your theory, of course).
You have one hell of a long list of atrocities to answer for before you can pass judgement on any other person or organisation...
quote:Originally posted by Surt
and i'd really prefer to continue discussion on here and not on some fuckin jesus freaks forum i dont go there.
...
i'd also like to ask some questions to the so called believers just to try to understand their way of thinking and percepting the reality ;)
Oddly enough, if you want to read the news, you look in a newspaper, if you want to eat a BigMac, you go to McDonalds. If you want information about my faith, I wouldn't have thought it would be unreasonable to expect that you'd go looking where it was to be easily found.
Out of respect for you, I'll continue to meet your preferences (to discuss my faith in this thread) on the condition that you meet mine:
1) The first person to complain about my faith being discussed here will end my involvement. I do not talk about my faith with people who don't want to.
2) We may discuss what I believe for the purposes of you understanding my <s>so called</s> beliefs, but you may not insult me for having those beliefs. I managed to gain an understanding of something I misunderstood without resorting to insult, despite the very strong abuse I was subject to (such abuse has been edited out thankfully, and thanks also to those who were considerate in their responses despite their not sharing my faith), I only ask from you that which I was prepared to do myself.
3) If I make a correction (such as Peter/Paul) you understand that I'm not trying to be offensive or pedantic, I'm simply trying to be accurate so that there are no misunderstandings. I sincerely believe that misunderstanding is one of the main causes for animosity between any two groups.
If you're not prepared to be understanding of my preferences, then you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not go looking for the information you want in the only other place where it can be found: amongst the Jesus freaks.
CC: An interesting, and poignant, analogy.
Surt: There is no need for a person to "wash their hands" when they have no blood on them. As I tried to explain, the RCC calls itself the "one true church" and has (as you correctly say) ruthlessy enforced its position throughout history. But it was never actually true, and there have always been bodies of true believers like myself who keep to (what we believe to be) the truth as it was recorded, in spite of our also being persecuted by the RCC.
We conquered in the name of King/Queen, country in the name of god.... all wrong, so many of them are now being rectified by our generation for what our ancestors did.
quote:Originally posted by Cruisecontrol
quote:Originally posted by Surt
peter or paul doesnt matter who i'm takin of rcc's priority while other 'branches' r schizmatics from the point of view :D quite easy to 'wash ones hands' saying its not my church that committed crimes against culture, history and humanity, it was 'lost souls' from...
Interesting concept you have there. So no matter what you say or do you are inexorably linked to all things bad as long as there is a tenuous link somewhere.
As a Russian this means that you personally are one of the most evil people on the planet (based purely on your theory, of course).
You have one hell of a long list of atrocities to answer for before you can pass judgement on any other person or organisation...
hahaha! not exactly! u cant stop being a russian or eskimo or irishman, huh, but what can prevent u from leaving behing a wrong ideology or religion, even if u were fed up by it with ur mom's milk? i was in opposition to commie regime since i was 12! i refused to participate in their 'pioneer's organization' and 'the young communist leage' having said its the same hitlerjugend [}:)] naturally, i had shitloads probs for that at school at instutute at army! thats wy im so set against any totalitatian institution, political, social or religious
btw, i have a lot of stereotypes against certain races, nations, nationalities, groups etc but they r superficial and wouldnt affect a personal attitude. also i give a fuck wat some of u think about russians, the fact is we saved the world from nazis... well i dont wanna say who made wat tho trust me i could! bout oz diggers to, thats just plain kooky, eh? [V]
quote:Originally posted by Jup
quote:Originally posted by Surt
and i'd really prefer to continue discussion on here and not on some fuckin jesus freaks forum i dont go there.
...
i'd also like to ask some questions to the so called believers just to try to understand their way of thinking and percepting the reality ;)
Oddly enough, if you want to read the news, you look in a newspaper, if you want to eat a BigMac, you go to McDonalds. If you want information about my faith, I wouldn't have thought it would be unreasonable to expect that you'd go looking where it was to be easily found.
Out of respect for you, I'll continue to meet your preferences (to discuss my faith in this thread) on the condition that you meet mine:
1) The first person to complain about my faith being discussed here will end my involvement. I do not talk about my faith with people who don't want to.
2) We may discuss what I believe for the purposes of you understanding my <s>so called</s> beliefs, but you may not insult me for having those beliefs. I managed to gain an understanding of something I misunderstood without resorting to insult, despite the very strong abuse I was subject to (such abuse has been edited out thankfully, and thanks also to those who were considerate in their responses despite their not sharing my faith), I only ask from you that which I was prepared to do myself.
3) If I make a correction (such as Peter/Paul) you understand that I'm not trying to be offensive or pedantic, I'm simply trying to be accurate so that there are no misunderstandings. I sincerely believe that misunderstanding is one of the main causes for animosity between any two groups.
If you're not prepared to be understanding of my preferences, then you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not go looking for the information you want in the only other place where it can be found: amongst the Jesus freaks.
CC: An interesting, and poignant, analogy.
Surt: There is no need for a person to "wash their hands" when they have no blood on them. As I tried to explain, the RCC calls itself the "one true church" and has (as you correctly say) ruthlessy enforced its position throughout history. But it was never actually true, and there have always been bodies of true believers like myself who keep to (what we believe to be) the truth as it was recorded, in spite of our also being persecuted by the RCC.
thanks heaps Jup, but if i want a news paper + a big mac + a fast blow job, where am i to go? :D u and cc r seemingly in the know so i take the chance to ask just a few stupid questions to be cleared, i aint gonna be offensive by no means, take it easy mate, its a bike<s>rs'</s> forum not a quiche eaters' forum, so all the names we give and take on here r just in joke, imo
sorry i didn't get ur
1st point 'The first person to complain about my faith being discussed here will end my involvement'? d'u mean the 3rd party persons or meself? i ain gonna complaint about anything, never, thats the russian way!
2. no personal insults!
3. no worries, i fucked up meself having mixed peter and paul, i studied christianity (by myself, sure - we must know our foe, dont we? [}:)]) quite long ago, about 15ys ago, so i still keep in mind some details but might forget the names and places hahaha!
but it may take awhile, so sorry lets leave it for the arvo, meaning my arvo, atm i have to pick up my stuff and fuck of!
quote:Originally posted by Surt
thanks heaps Jup, but if i want a news paper + a big mac + a fast blow job, where am i to go? :D u and cc r seemingly in the know so i take the chance to ask just a few stupid questions to be cleared, i aint gonna be offensive by no means, take it easy mate, its a bike<s>rs'</s> forum not a quiche eaters' forum, so all the names we give and take on here r just in joke, imo
sorry i didn't get ur
1st point 'The first person to complain about my faith being discussed here will end my involvement'? d'u mean the 3rd party persons or meself? i ain gonna complaint about anything, never, thats the russian way!
2. no personal insults!
3. no worries, i fucked up meself having mixed peter and paul, i studied christianity (by myself, sure - we must know our foe, dont we? [}:)]) quite long ago, about 15ys ago, so i still keep in mind some details but might forget the names and places hahaha!
but it may take awhile, so sorry lets leave it for the arvo, meaning my arvo, atm i have to pick up my stuff and fuck of!
Sweet as then mate, I'll just assume you're only shit stiring if you call me a dickhead then :D
Re:1) I guess what I mean is, if people start jumping in and telling us to stop all this shit, they don't want to see it here etc, then I'll respect that. I've never been an actual "bible basher" and I'm not about to start, I only answer questions for people who actually want to know ;)
Re3:) I have trouble remembering shit I studies years ago too mate, for that reason I keep a copy of the texts handy and take my time to reference them.
If you want to eat a burger while getting a blowjob I'm sorry bloke, but you ruskies must have very understanding wives lol! :D
quote:Originally posted by Surt
hahaha! not exactly! u cant stop being a russian or eskimo or irishman, huh, but what can prevent u from leaving behing a wrong ideology or religion, even if u were fed up by it with ur mom's milk? i was in opposition to commie regime since i was 12! i refused to participate in their 'pioneer's organization' and 'the young communist leage' having said its the same hitlerjugend [}:)] naturally, i had shitloads probs for that at school at instutute at army! thats wy im so set against any totalitatian institution, political, social or religious
btw, i have a lot of stereotypes against certain races, nations, nationalities, groups etc but they r superficial and wouldnt affect a personal attitude. also i give a fuck wat some of u think about russians, the fact is we saved the world from nazis... well i dont wanna say who made wat tho trust me i could! bout oz diggers to, thats just plain kooky, eh? [V]
You might say that your position is similar to mine then mate. I have "been in opposition to the <s>communist</s> RCC regime" since I became a born-again 15 years ago (I'm now 40), but I've always believed in (a) God of some description on a primal level, and I consider it reasonable to say that just as you can't stop being a Russian, I can't (as a basic/instinctual level) stop believing in (a) God. I was never fed it as a child, with an athiest mother and a buddhist dad, so I can't even blame my conditioning [8D]
We also share our attitudes towards stereotypes, and how we "don't give a fuck" what other people think of us [^]
The best thing about forums is that you can come back a week later and ask/answer a question, so no worries mate, let's sort this shit out at our leisure [8D]
So this thread has moved from intollerance in the Uk of muslims, to xtianity, to Russians? Small world with some small minds in it people.n As I recall Russia has been the canon fodder for the regimes that ruled them... and no greater sacrifice was made by the Russian people in both world wars. Its like saying all Germans are nazis.... that shit just aint on! As for steriotypes of people from different races/countries, we all have some preconceived perception but it's not until we meet and get to know those people as INDIVIDUALS that we can make a true judgement. There are always exceptions to the rules but my point is that it only takes 1% of a fanatical faction within ANY race/religion to create this Daily Mail fear factor on the whole race/religion. It's bollox. Stop being sheep and make your own minds up on YOUR experiences. If you've had bad experiences, then fair enough, express them but don't repeat shit you read somewhere that someone wrote to incite hatred/intollerance.
You don't like it when people descriminate against you as a biker, so don't be hypocrites and do it to others cos they are different. Shit, even within the biker world, streetfighters are slagged off.
quote:Originally posted by NoZ
So this thread has moved from intollerance in the Uk of muslims, to xtianity, to Russians? Small world with some small minds in it people.n As I recall Russia has been the canon fodder for the regimes that ruled them... and no greater sacrifice was made by the Russian people in both world wars. Its like saying all Germans are nazis.... that shit just aint on! As for steriotypes of people from different races/countries, we all have some preconceived perception but it's not until we meet and get to know those people as INDIVIDUALS that we can make a true judgement. There are always exceptions to the rules but my point is that it only takes 1% of a fanatical faction within ANY race/religion to create this Daily Mail fear factor on the whole race/religion. It's bollox. Stop being sheep and make your own minds up on YOUR experiences. If you've had bad experiences, then fair enough, express them but don't repeat shit you read somewhere that someone wrote to incite hatred/intollerance.
You don't like it when people descriminate against you as a biker, so don't be hypocrites and do it to others cos they are different. Shit, even within the biker world, streetfighters are slagged off.
doh i didnt intend to dispute about the sinister ruskies in the thread but i can start a dedicated thread on the topic where anyone will be able to bring and share around ones feelings thoughts and emotions about ruskies, to get rid of them or to the contrary to accumulate them - emotions and thoughts
i of just realised that the barely begun dispute about religions cant compete to the global problem of moslems in the uk, blame me small mind! on the other hand u noz r free to undertake ur own steps for the thread development to any direction u wish, e.g. tell us how u r discriminated for being a pagan and biker and how d'u feel about that, thats ever so much more interesting for us!
as for the russians' input in the both ww, i daresay u were either not the best student or ur history course's so castrated of the real info that u cant get the names of main battles, the date when allied forces opened the SECOND front (in wwii) - june 1944 (after 3 ys of warfare on the eastern front, after Moscow's, Stalingrad's and Kursk's battles, when its became obvious to the west that russians were winning the war), and the count of victims from every country involved: 23,000,000. russians (obviously more), 9,000,000. germans, 450,000. americans and just about the same of brittish commonwealth, including canada, oz, nz, india etc... oh yeah, just looked into wikipedia where smaller operations on the west front, africa and pacific ocean r equalled to the most blodshedding battles in history on the eastern front! and they didnt even present the count of victims!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II
so no wonder...
ok Jup, as Noz has already started whining, i'm better off asking u in pm if u dont mind? :D
Um wasn't aiming anything at you Surt. I was highlighting that some other comments about your country were shit in my opinion because I did study history for gcse and we covered the world wars and extensively the loss of the Russians for their part in the war... and the lead up to both wars and the poverty and struggle. I just didn't agree that Russians could be considered the most evil race on the planet..
Do i get discriminated against as a pagan/biker? Nope. So no whining coming from me. Just trying to be objective to all views shared here. We are all entitled to our opinions. I just have strong views on racial intolerance. I didn't start the thread but like I said, it's one of those subjects that will start big debates. I blame HOS lol
[:0] HOS is JackTars pseudonym?!!!! [:0]
Surt: Anywhere you like mate.
NoZ: I'd have preferred to have used the "rider" analogy myself also. TBH I don't think CC meant to single out Russia as a specifically evil place, only that they've had their fair share of atrocities through the ages and, as both you and he said, it's not fair to hold a single person accounteble (by default) for the entire history of evils perpetrated by the group they're assumed to be in alignment with before finding out that persons true alignment.
As for the wars, I confess the only real education I have about Russias involvement is from playing "Call Of Duty" and they're portrayed as under equipt, but fierce fighters against the Nazis. They won out through skill, determination and courage, and I have nothing but respect for them.
Cruisecontrol
09-08-2010, 05:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by NoZ
So this thread has moved from intollerance in the Uk of muslims, to xtianity, to Russians? Small world with some small minds in it people.n As I recall Russia has been the canon fodder for the regimes that ruled them... and no greater sacrifice was made by the Russian people in both world wars. Its like saying all Germans are nazis.... that shit just aint on! As for steriotypes of people from different races/countries, we all have some preconceived perception but it's not until we meet and get to know those people as INDIVIDUALS that we can make a true judgement. There are always exceptions to the rules but my point is that it only takes 1% of a fanatical faction within ANY race/religion to create this Daily Mail fear factor on the whole race/religion. It's bollox. Stop being sheep and make your own minds up on YOUR experiences. If you've had bad experiences, then fair enough, express them but don't repeat shit you read somewhere that someone wrote to incite hatred/intollerance.
You don't like it when people descriminate against you as a biker, so don't be hypocrites and do it to others cos they are different. Shit, even within the biker world, streetfighters are slagged off.
LOL, the irony is positively delightful...
quote:Originally posted by Jup
TBH I don't think CC meant to single out Russia as a specifically evil place, only that they've had their fair share of atrocities through the ages
i would say that the western europe could match to russia in atrocities all over the history, just take hitler, our army losses were 8,000.000. other 15,000,000. were civils. actually u can take any "civilised" country up to the 20th century, england or france or spain, holland, their colonies etc, all atrocities, mass murders, civil and religious wars bloodshedding riots and revolutions then how about asia? we cant match em at all!
take oz, the black war, battle at broken hill, eureka, ned kelly does it mean that oz is an evil place? nfw, neither russia is/was. authorities can be evil, not countries.
now take usa, august, 6 and 9, 1945, just 55ys ago sharp! the bloody bastards nuked hiroshima and nagasaki, hundreds of thousands burnt at once, millions suffered and died in years to follow, the peaceful population, not army, why? just to let know to the russians they had the a-bomb? so whats the empire of evil? [}:)] korea, nam, many others, most recent events in iraq, afganistan?
btw, theres a moratorium on death penalty in russia, not in usa!
Battle of Tanneburg (sp) will always stick out in my memory 120,000 in one battle and the general shot himself in disgrace.
Totally bang on about the USA... how can we forget 55 years ago this week. Horrific shit. But they also funded the oklahoma bombings and even 9/11, not to mention their IRA links. They are the most powerful nation on this planet and they know it. Yet Bush is a hardcore xtian but did great evil things... look how he left new orleans for days before helping out.
I can't remember saying I had attitude for being a pagan biker but I definitely do have an attitude cos I'm pagan and a biker lol
Irony is a bitch isn't it? lol
Shadowzone
09-08-2010, 07:41 AM
At the end of the day, it comes down to this in my experience - I spent the night in the lock up a while ago. I shared a cell with a guy who was petrified of me. He had killed a bloke in a fist fight a few days previous to my appearance. His reason? He had never had a fight before and thought this guy belting him was gong to kill him. Does this make him a murderer? I don't think it does personally, but some of you may think differently. I think it all comes back to good men do bad things. Is George W. inherently evil? Not knowing the man I won't say yes or no, I'll leave it for God to sort out. He is the only one who has the right to pass judgement on us for our acts and to decide if they're good or inherently evil.
In saying that we are also subject to the laws of the lands we choose to live in and as such are also subject to kings, rulers, magistrates etc too. They will ALL make mistakes. after all they are human and subject to the same weaknesses as the rest of us. Come on lads, let us know if you've never made a mistake?
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