zx12r NOS tuning??

[Arron_01r1]

hey guys, tax time is here and that blue bottle has caught my attention, does anyone have experience with dry/wet kits on a ZX12R, or know of the tuning side of things? could the power commander take care of it? will it have to run rich all the time for when i hit the button? so many kits out there, dont wanna snap up a 'deal' and get it all wrong,

Bike is a 06 with 3000kms full akro system, have fillters and PCIII to be fitted.

any advise or general shit dribbling will be greatly appreciated:D

[scotty]

all depends on how big of a kick in the pants. A small shot( under 50 horneys) and u can tune it with the pc. Yes it will be rich everywhere but in the spot.

[Redmohawk]

Or you could go the other route and do a decient wet setup , even roll your own if you like I've done several up about 120 hp on a 2L inline 6cyl car I can post up a jet list for you if your interested ? If you run a dedicated fuel pump at 10 psi the jets are both the same size, dont get much easyer than that! Got to love throttle in the bottle ;)

[Booster]

I have done a dry setup on a busa
Used the reflashing of the std ecu so it switched to the nos map only when activated. Worked great, 40hp kit gave exactly that
PC may be able to give similar results, just need external switches for rpm and tps settings , but i'm not sure if you can map switch with the pc to go from non nos to nos , your ecu has the capability but its not cheap to hack like the busa
Wet kits ad a bit more cost but for a long time worked better than the dry nos
Old dry setups used to direct the nos at the inlet air temp sensor for the extra fuel, but it was slow to respond when turned on and off, seen others put a dedicated resistor in parrallel to the temp sensor that switched into the circuit when the nos solenoid was engaged , all bandaid and hp limited , if you were looking at doing something like this go straight to wet.
maybe a regulator off the std fuel supply to get the 10 psi Red ??

[Booster]

Oh and nearly forgot, your 12 is probably about ready for a new pump and filter, check the flow before you do anything, i bet its way lower than factory spec , just externally power the pump and measure the fuel flow into a bucket over a min,.... don't set yourself on fire doing this.watch the fuel and electrics are not too close...

[Redmohawk]

Yeah an ajustable one from usual suplyers for a carb is easy way to go about $40 for a dial adjustable one last time i got one and just run a T in return line off bike injection is easy and seems to work fine.
Ok boy's and girls first number is MM jet size of nos jet (liquid only) second number is aproximate HP per nos jet (Ie 4cyl bike 4 jets) 3rd number is fuel juet at 45 psi (say tour runing it off your fuel rail supply presure etc) 4th number is fuel jet at 10 psi (what I recomend you use is the easyest to set up!) 5th number is fuel jet at 3psi and the last on a few in the middle with the * are gravity fed from a separate line off your tank (ok if your running carbs)

the last figure is how long a particular jet will take in seconds to flow a pint if you need to check a jet for size (like if you want to used a fuel injector mounted into your system running off the fuel rail etc)

the first 3 here the 45psi jet is to small to be practical but you could use an fuel injector if you were keen (what i my use in the future) so first number is nos jet second is hp 3rd is 10 psi fuel 4th is 3 psi fuel no gravity figures for this small sorry lol

0.30 6.3 bhp 0.30 0.40 -1 pint fuel delivered 1031 seconds
0.35 8.6 bhp 0.35 0.50 -1 pint fuel delivered 755 seconds
0.40 11.2 bhp 0.40 0.55 -1 pint fuel delivered 580 seconds

0.45 14.2 bhp 0.300 0.45 0.60 -1 pint fuel delivered 457 seconds
0.50 17.5 bhp 0.325 0.50 0.70 -1 pint fuel delivered 317 seconds
0.55 21.2 bhp 0.350 0.55 0.75 -1 pint fuel delivered 309 seconds
0.60 25.2 bhp 0.400 0.60 0.80 *1.50 1 pint fuel delivered 260 seconds
0.65 29.5 bhp 0.450 0.65 0.90 *1.70 1 pint fuel delivered 216 seconds
0.70 34.3 bhp 0.475 0.70 0.95 *1.90 1 pint fuel delivered 191 seconds
0.75 39.4 bhp 0.500 0.75 1.00 *2.10 1 pint fuel delivered 162 seconds
0.80 44.8 bhp 0.525 0.80 1.10 *2.10 / no jet 1 pint fuel delivered 144 seconds
0.85 50.6 bhp 0.550 0.85 1.15 1 pint fuel delivered 130 seconds
0.90 56.7 bhp 0.600 0.90 1.20 1 pint fuel delivered 114 seconds
0.95 63.2 bhp 0.625 0.95 1.30 1 pint fuel delivered 103 seconds
1.00 70.0 bhp 0.675 1.00 1.35 1 pint fuel delivered 92 seconds
1.05 77.1 bhp 0.700 1.05 1.40 1 pint fuel delivered 84 seconds
1.10 84.7 bhp 0.725 1.10 1.50 1 pint fuel delivered 77 seconds
1.15 92.5 bhp 0.775 1.15 1.55 1 pint fuel delivered 71 seconds
1.20 100.2 bhp 0.800 1.20 1.60 1 pint fuel delivered 65 seconds
1.25 109.3 bhp 0.825 1.25 1.70 1 pint fuel delivered 59 seconds
1.30 118.3 bhp 0.875 1.30 1.75 1 pint fuel delivered 55 seconds
1.35 127.5 bhp 0.900 1.35 1.80 1 pint fuel delivered 51 seconds
1.40 137.4 bhp 0.950 1.40 1.90 1 pint fuel delivered 47 seconds
1.50 157.5 bhp 1.000 1.50 2.00 1 pint fuel delivered 41 seconds
1.60 179.2 bhp 1.075 1.60 2.15 1 pint fuel delivered 36 seconds
1.70 202.3 bhp 1.150 1.70 2.30 1 pint fuel delivered 32 seconds
1.80 226.8 bhp 1.200 1.80 1 pint fuel delivered 29 seconds
1.90 252.7 bhp 1.275 1.90 1 pint fuel delivered 26 seconds
2.00 280.0 bhp 1.350 2.00

Remember if you have a 4 cyl you need a jet for both fuel and nos to each cyl and I would use a max of 35% power increase on your first attempts if your brave/can ride lol is your more sencable say 15% to 20% is a better first step (doesnt sound like much but it will feel like 100 hp when it kicks in the first time lol) so for a modern bike putting out say 120 hp you prob should be looking at an increase of say 25 hp to get you started so you need jets for both nos and fuel so thats 8 in total all at 0.3 mm to give you a power increase of 25.2 hp at your back tyre with a NOS pressure of 800 psi and a fuel pressure of 10 psi.

Buy a wet car kit with a small bottle and a fuel solanoid and a NOS one plumb it all up but with no jets in the lines till after the solinoids you want the liquid NOS to vaporise as close to the intake as possable so a 4 way outlet on both the fuel and NOS after the solaniods to lines to your intakes with jets mounted into your squirters is the best bet .

Setups seem to work best with the NOS jet firing down the intake aiming the NOS streem at the output of the fuel jet at an angle to vaporise the fuel. Is all relatively easy to setup (have a look in an enzed shop for fittings , the plastic push to lock stuff with the good high pessure air hose works just fine at NOS pressures)

The only thing hard to get cheap is the NOS solinoids ebay for about 70 to $80 if your lucky , ps old CO2 fire bottles make great little nos bottles for a bike lol

[Redmohawk]

I got all this info off the net from a pom about 10 years ago , if you look around there is heaps on roll your own setups for bikes.
The bloke i got this from was stuffing over 100hp of nos through a stock motored 1100 at the drags at the time and it loved it lol

[Booster]

Red why 800 psi, ?? on a moderately warm day say 32 deg your bottle pressure will be closer to 900 and running lean..
the guy i get my nos info from is very insistant at running high pressures and a bottle heater so at worst its not up to temp and overly rich and not likely to get a hot day lean out ?? but then i see other guys running 600 psi and intentionally cooling there bottlers to run at the drags ??? so buggered if i know whats best....

speaking of co2 bottles i have a couple here , used for airshifters and originally from paintball guns, also Bunnings used to refill Ozito co2 containers (nail gun) .. a good sized bottle for fitting into small spaces ;) just have a limited charge

[Arron_01r1]

thanks guys, great to get some feed back, it all sounds very complicated, i did see once a wet kit from MUZZYS that looked very good, but it seems its not available anymore, ill keep looking, oh big'cc racing had a dry kit that on paper sounded good, came with a pc style box that richens the fuel when the nos is activated, i like the sound of that one, didnt realise nitrous is so sesitive, bottle pressures and like, and guess work will be expensive to fix hehe

[Redmohawk]

Arron don't be dis heartened it not really that hard honast, nos isnt really that fussy the jet sizes listed are a little (LITTLE!!!!!!!) rich at 800psi and at 900 psi will prob be ok still don't forget to drop your timing back about 4 to 5 deg if your stuffing in lots if your staying under 20% increase you could drop it a little say 2 deg and be fine. It's just common sence sort of stuff, you wouldn't change your carb neadles in a bike and ride around lean all the time , when you setup NOS you do it right learn how and your set. If you just buy a pack bolt it on and go things may be fine but then on a hot day it may be lean etc. Thing is your not using it for 10 min at a time but your working the motor hard when its on so things can go wrong fastish lol.

Booster they would be dropping temps because there sytem isn't setup to well, if there lines are to long or thin with crap conectors the NOS will vaporise in the line freezing shit up dropping tank temp can help with this but better to do it right the first time ! Short lines direct from tank to intake as quick as you can, there are many things to worry about on a full on setup but for the street/light modded bike its relativly simple stuff. If you can see frost on the lines anywhere before the jets something is wrong the liquid is vaorising in the line causing all kinds of shit with tuning.

Highter pressure/temp is a way to increase liquid flow but NOS bottle pressure at 20 deg c is about 750 psi so at 25 it will be ruffly 850psi 30deg 950 psi and at 36 deg it is up to 1070 psi will change jet flows a little at small jet sizes but not heaps the thing is NOS isnt something you carry around on the street to use (naughty naughty lol) really it is a little tricky for the street as your bike is out in the heat one minute and in the shade the next bottle temps can fucltuate heaps if you er on the ritch side all's ok . I'm not saying this is the jets go play with your eyes closed lol These jets are for 25 deg average air temp (bottle out of the hot sun) ! Bottle pressure difference of 200 psi works out to be a flow difference of about 25% so if your running a little rich on your fuel jet its a good thing lol These jets lists came from Pommy land so there temps are a little cooler than ours so spot on for winter spring and autum but play careful in summer kids lol

Common sence with this shit boys and girls, plug chops work great to check your mixures if your old school , me I like a wideband oxy sensor to sniff the crap being farted out the pipe. Look up the net if your not sure heaps of info out there. Booster in your case your running right on the ragged edge far past a normal street bike level anything over 200 hp per litre and your really cooking and your up around 400 a litre atm so running NOS has its pro's and cons for you as I'm sure you know, in low doses on low modded bikes its relitivly easy on your bike on the edge it can make or brake you in seconds. Has lots of advantages but also has lots of pitfalls for the unaware.

NOS can be treated like CO2 as far as bottles are concerned and lines etc basicly the same testing pressures for bottles etc but solanoids need to be able to switch at least 900 psi to be reliable. NOTICE NOS will give you a nasty cold burn worse than an oxy flame if you fuck around so be careful filling bottles etc .

Bottle warmers are a way of keeping things more even I used a electric blanket for 2 years lol worked great till I found heat pads for home brew kits lol looked much better. MY tank was set for 30 deg c and taken out of the car when not racing unless your parked in the sun on a bike i doubt your tank would get much hotter than that unless your out on a really hot day in summer and then the road would be so messy i doubt you could use the extra power anyway lol

Boosters issues are more complicated as out on the salt it could get real hot in the tank over 40 deg and you dont want tank pressures going over 1150 psi as this is the gas/liquid pressure limit you will have issues with liquid going to gas in the lines before the jets even with a good system as the liquid is already at a critical limit. you want to aim for 30 deg c optimum to limit pressure fulutuations in your case mate forget bottle cooling , and if your planning on a long run (minutes on the NOS) on the NOS out on the salt I'd bet you will run into pressure drop issues because of the liquid rushing out of the tank so fast! So you want to setup a Nitrogen pus system , second tank with nitrogen runing into the NOS tank sipon taking NOS from the bottom of the tank and Nitrogen pumped in at tank pressure into the top to keep tank pressure up! Now your talking good shit !

[Booster]

I'll keep the turbo and nos seperate , each has plenty of potential at damage if you get it wrong , mixing them is a recipe for disaster , nos busa i was involved with was for drags , but seen a mate setup nos (wet) for the salt, carried 2 big bottles 5 lb or so ea, because of the pressure drop on a long run, and the self cooling of a bottle outputting a fair flow
started small as he called it with 100hp shot ....
Red the dry shot busa is coming back for a retune soon with a bigger fuel pump ( we were getting a top end leanout with the std pump ) i'll give you a call when he is coming , you will love what he has done for a distribution block to dirct shot each velocity stack , drilled and tapped a aluminium block as a supply rail then used car steel brake lines and flare nuts as distribution lines to each cyl, made it for ~$10 and works great

[Redmohawk]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NOS-NITROUS-OXIDE-UNIVERSAL-WET-KIT-50HP-/110558042848?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19bdc5dae0

There you go Arron good kit might go cheap you never know lol with some work it could be setup for a 4 cyl bike resonably easy.
And this site will tell you all you need to know about DIY NOS and tuning it mate

http://www.nitrous.info/engine-preparation-for-nitrous.htm

Booster DIY is the only way to fly once you know what your up to as most of the big manufacutres are ripping you off heaps , my last bike project was a "proper kit" on a pitbike as the guy bought a egay 16 gram kit and wasnt happy lol We used a old co2 fire bottle I made the solenoids out of industrial 6volt air switches with modded valves (you could prob use some lpg units depending on the valve setup) and used idle jets out of a car for precision jets. All up cost was about $50 with some scrounging of parts and gave the 125 about 10 HP of Nos was a handfull lol

Don't blame you on keeping the turbo and Nos separate mate my celica was street/drag up around 500 kw at the tyres from the time cards no dyno proof lol nothing below 3000 rpm so Nos made turbo spool up on the lights and sut down above 1st gear just got me moving once boost was on traction was the problem haha . Let your mate with the double bottle setup know its easyer to use a bottle of Nos pushed from behind with nitrogen to solve the pressure drop issue in bottle. Nitrogen is stored up to 3000 psi so you can just regulate it down to tank presure feed it in at the top Nos feed is at the bottom with siphon when the tank is empty she will just run rich and cutout try to aviod doing that though at real high outputs , lots of fuel going into a motor with nitrogen = hydrolic falure lol (I know from experiance lol) If he is doing a couple of long runs on the salt I would use a small Nitrogen cyl to push into one Nos tank feeding into the other tank so you can empty both Nos tanks from memory (been a while but you could look it up on the web) I think its about 1 pound of Nos for 100 hp per 6 sec ruffly . So two 5 pound bottles would give you 100 hp for around a min tops.

There is some really great info in this thread. If you're thinking of playing with nitrous oxide, read it again and again until you understand what's being talked about.

Thanks to Red and Booster.

[Redmohawk]

No prob guys , I learnt the hard way and destroyed 4 engines in the process one very spectacularly lol (2 rods punched through the side of a 6 cyl block haha) but they were $50 a piece so I bought a traler load of em at the time.

Nos can be heaps of fun and very cheap HP for a bike but you have to treat it with care (if your moding bottles etc pleace fit a burst disk of pressure valve) only cost you $40 but if your bottles on your bike full (or worse over full) and left in the sun on a real hot day it could save your or someones elses life! And cops don't like it much but usally they don't know so don't get real upset if its armed on the street , but get pulled over but the TOG in Vic with it armed and ready to fire and your in for a world of EPA hurt to the tune of about $2000 in fines lol then they will make you do a smog test prob before you can roadworthy your bike again (another $2000 pass or fail lol)

Simple if hose is off bottle you can't be pinched for it in Vic laws are different in each state ! Have fun lol

[Arron_01r1]

heaps of good info guys, cheers!!! pretty sure im gonna go with an NX system, just a small dry tickle that will be enought to learn with, then once im bored with that, ill do it proper with a wet setup, and pistons to suit, zx12r's dont have forged pistons, and so im lead to belive, cant handle more than 200hp, kinda glad about that, its a limiting factor that may just save my arse hehe,

[Booster]

I believe your right about the pistons, not known for reliability when turbo'd ,
You could ceramic coat them, i do it to everything now, only ~$35/piston , increase the safety margin some

200hp your going to need at least 1000cc/min fuel preferably a bit extra, so 1200cc to be safe, check your pump is up to it .

[Booster]

This nos kit anygood to you http://www.australian-hayabusa-club.com/MyBB/showthread.php?tid=15161
Pretty sure Leith is a member here too