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View Full Version : Making a crystal effect solution.



cammy9r
31-01-2007, 09:03 PM
I know this has been kind of put in another post but here is my experience with the crystal paint effect.

ok, the crystal solution can be bought from alsa corp but it works out at £80 a quart to get it over here but will no doubt be cheaper for you guys. For the various effects you use different amounts of solution, mostly lots.
For the various effects you use different amounts of solution, mostly lots.
There are 4 ingredients to the solution.

Water
Urea
ammonia (not so sure if this is an additive or just present in the urea)
neocryl (an acrylic copolymer used as some kind of wetting agent, it is in the form of neocryl bt-175 and this is made from 58% water 40% acrylic copolymer and 2% sodium lauryl sulphate(this is common in nearly all liquid soaps,used partly as a thickener. Anyway, not something that can be bought over the counter so i have looked for alternatives).

Water from your tap (i will try bottled water and deionised water as well), ammonia from hardware store and Urea from a cleaning supply store or maybe a garden center. Urea is also present in cleaning agents as well as fertiliser and is easily available in prill form (small balls/granules)
Im sure that where you get your Urea from will supply ammonia.

Now you need to create a saturated solution. To do this i got a pint of water and added the urea untill it stopped disolving in the water. Then i heated the solution in a pot and added more urea until it stopped disolving. About room temp is all that is needed. I found that if too hot the urea will decompose and will not work. No point in adding urea to boiling water as it takes up to 7kg per liter and most of it will reform when the solution cools. I believe that the re crystalised urea will be a better form with less impurities, maybe better to use but i'm not sure. At 20*c water will take about 1kg per liter of urea.

This was good enough a process to create a saturated solution(a chemist might have the right way to do it, so feel free to inform us )

Ok that is the crystal solution ready but if you pour this over fresh dry paint it will bead on the surface. To stop this we add the ammonia, this seems to act as a wetting agent to break water tension and allow the solution to pool over the surface and stick a tiny bit better. I will experiment with other surfactants, washing up liquid,washing powder. This is why i think the alsa stuff has the neocryl bt-175
I used 70% crystal solution to 30% ammonia. This worked for me but experiment for yourself as you may need more or less ammomia. It does seem to take longer to dry with more ammonia. Good, bad, i will let you know later. EDIT: It does not require a lot of surfactant maybe only 5ml per 100ml.

Now apply your base coat, this will be the main colour of the finish depending if you candy or not.
once dry there are a number of ways to proceed.
you can clear over the base as this gives a good surface to key up heavily in many directions. This way you can almost control the forms of the crystal.
Or you can key/scuff up the base coat itself OR you can just leave the base coat. It is up to your self to try this out.

Now apply the the crystal, i just pour it on as it is cheap as if you make it your self £2 ish a pint. Others use a spray bottle to apply it. Either way is good. A thin layer of solution will give a thin crystal form and a thick layer will give a thick crystal form.
Now leave to air dry in a warm room for large finger fromations or force dry for tighter smaller formations. I prefer air dry.
As it dries you will see the crystals form, quite cool to watch the first few times.
Let it dry out fully about 15 mins to an hour depending on the temp and thickness of application.
Now it is time for the contrast coat, i use black as it seems to be more dramatic. This MUST be applied in a light dusting fashion, NO heavy application as it will melt the crytsal and make it difficult to remove later.
1 light coat will give a shallow 3d contrast and a few light coats will give a deeper 3d contrast. For the best result i found that NOT applying even coats of black is best for giving varing depth of finish. Once the top/contrast(black for me) coat has dried you can then remove the crystals by washing with water and a soft cloth, try not to rub to hard. If the crystal is being stubborn to remove then LIGHTLY wet sand with 1500/2000 grit.
Now that it is clear of crystal and dried you can apply your top coats be they candys, pearls or just clear coat.

EDIT: Raising the point of safety when mixing chemicals, I believe that you should only attempt this if you have researched the materials you are using and have COMMON SENSE I doubt the mixes i'm using are explosive or toxic (other than usual ammonia vapour and spay) but remember to be careful.

Urea reacts with calcium hypochlorite or sodium hypochlorite to form the explosive nitrogen trichloride. It is incompatible with sodium nitrite, gallium perchlorate, strong oxidizing agents (permanganate, dichromate, nitrate, chlorine), phosphorus pentachloride, nitrosyl perchlorate, titanium tetrachloride and chromyl chloride. PLEASE AVOID THESE WHEN MIXING WITH WATER!!!!!
It does contain ammonia which smells bad and is irritable . Ammonia solutions should not be mixed with halogens( fluorine (F), chlorine (Cl), bromine (Br), iodine (I), astatine (At), as toxic and/or explosive products are formed. The urea/ammonia mix is good for your plants........but if for some reason you mix it with bleach (one of the 1st things i thought of doing;) ) then it can release a chlorine gas which it bad bad bad (seriously)


just a quick note that the crazer effect that alsa sell can be replicated using fine rubbing compound over a base coat then contrast coated washed down and top coated/cleared
Might not be as good as the crazer but well worth the effort to try. Another cool effect is the marbilizer from HOK (house of kolor)

Note that all of theses effects need shit loads of clear coats to build up the layers as they are tactlie finishes. Lots of clear allow you to wet sand and polish and create fantastic and unique paint effects.

Another note is that the crystal finish is organic in style and almost impossible to create the exact same effect. So it is best to do large adjacent panels at the same time as the air flow and temp will be the same.

Any way perhaps that will make it easier for ppl to grasp if they are just browsing the site.

Sorry, for once no pics :) maybe when i do my lid [8D]

31-01-2007, 09:15 PM
Eh?

Can you point us at any examples of what crystal paint is?

I'm too old to know about such things :D

suxukifreak
31-01-2007, 09:20 PM
This is what happens when you use crystal...............








http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/100670701810014.jpg


;) [xx(]

catchmeifyoucan
31-01-2007, 09:26 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/100670704371793.jpgthats what he means by crystal paint... looks pretty crazy if you ask me..

catchmeifyoucan
31-01-2007, 09:27 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/100670704337082.jpg

or maybe this one you like...

31-01-2007, 09:35 PM
Niice

jakam04
31-01-2007, 09:35 PM
Id love to have this type of effect on that 2006 SV6 blue commodore colour on my bike... long way off yet as need to get bike to my final stage before worrying about paint lol...

Jarrod

catchmeifyoucan
31-01-2007, 09:43 PM
im thinking about doing my RR in this type of effect, but it stands out like donkeys balls... nice and easy for cops to recognize, and thats not cool...

zx12argh
31-01-2007, 10:35 PM
quote: just a quick note that the crazer effect that alsa sell can be replicated using fine rubbing compound over a base coat then contrast coated washed down and top coated/cleared

I'm looking at doing the crazer effect... but that doesn't make much sense to me - maybe its the afternoon drinks... can you re-essplain for me? I would mucho appriciato :D

dazz
01-02-2007, 10:10 AM
very nice 44 gal drum mate:D

tacky1
01-02-2007, 04:17 PM
Top Class, Thanks, Might give this a go..

catchmeifyoucan
01-02-2007, 04:43 PM
quote:Originally posted by dazz

very nice 44 gal drum mate:D


i wish i had one...[V]

cammy9r
01-02-2007, 07:58 PM
quote:Originally posted by zx12argh


quote: just a quick note that the crazer effect that alsa sell can be replicated using fine rubbing compound over a base coat then contrast coated washed down and top coated/cleared

I'm looking at doing the crazer effect... but that doesn't make much sense to me - maybe its the afternoon drinks... can you re-essplain for me? I would mucho appriciato :D


use a good bodyshop[silicone free and water based] cutting compound (fine paste not liquid) and put some over your basecoat, now you can distort the surface of the paste with a rag or cling film(food wrap) or tin foil. remove the wrap(or what ever you used) then dust your contrast over that. when dry wash down with water and finish with candy or clear.
It can aslo be done using a very wet coat of paint and a plastic bag or wrap. However i found that i could only do this on small panels as the basecoat i used dried quite fast. I have used both of these with good results and all look like the HOK marbilizer, Alsa crazer and rage marble paste.
You don't have to be a pro to get great results, if you can wave a spray gun then your half way there. :D
If you're interested in theses paint effects check out some airbrush forums. I've been browsing them for the last couple of years, plenty cool stuff but most air brushing is beyond my skills for now

Booster
01-02-2007, 10:24 PM
How would plain salt go for a finer effect, crystals are smaller than urea.??

Bloody great effect !

Also if anyone wants urea and can't find it at the local nursery/plant specialist i buy it by the truckload .

zx12argh
01-02-2007, 10:41 PM
Brilliant - thanks cammy - I'm going to have a crack this weekend just for a bit of practise - the 12r is shortly going to get a new paint job in time for fools run :)


quote:Originally posted by Booster

Also if anyone wants urea and can't find it at the local nursery/plant specialist i buy it by the truckload .


Hey booster? Who's your supplier? Osama? I have a truck load of diesel if you are interested ;)

BOHEMION
02-02-2007, 12:41 AM
Hey Pete! Let me know hw you go mate or let me know if i can bring over some ales and watch ya do it learn for when the Duke Tank is repaired!

Booster
02-02-2007, 07:17 AM
quote:Originally posted by zx12argh

Hey booster? Who's your supplier? Osama? I have a truck load of diesel if you are interested ;)



:D Used to remove trees with a bit of ammonium nitrate and diesel, can't buy the good stuff anymore :(
urea is for spreading on the ground.;)

zx12argh
02-02-2007, 09:19 AM
quote:Originally posted by BOHEMION

Hey Pete! Let me know hw you go mate or let me know if i can bring over some ales and watch ya do it learn for when the Duke Tank is repaired!


PM'd you Boh

shift1313
05-02-2007, 12:37 AM
i noticed in the how to section the pices looked grainy. how many coats of clear have to be used to smooth this out? Also have you tried or seen any pictures of this done over multiple colors? For instance my tank is 3tone and i was wondering how the crystal would look on that.

27-02-2007, 06:39 AM
this is what efect you get when you do the plastic bag way
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/gixer-mark/03022007267.jpg

cammy9r
01-03-2007, 08:46 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/828898283161815.jpg


http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/828898283155788.jpg


Some pics of the home made stuff. The solution appears to be very dependant on temp. This was done at 30*C. Now it just needs a flatten and polish. Will post pics when the bike is all back together.

Gix11
02-03-2007, 01:20 PM
Hey Cammy, are you binning that amazing red paint job you did?

barknmad
02-03-2007, 05:24 PM
Shift1313,
The paint job is raised to some extent (grainy?) but the 3d effect is a slight optical illusion. The clear over mine (the bronze tank) had a couple of medium clear coats then sanded, couple more, then buffed. Not much really. 8^)

cammy9r
02-03-2007, 09:42 PM
quote:Originally posted by Gix11

Hey Cammy, are you binning that amazing red paint job you did?

no, not until i spill the bike ;) but it's only a matter of time LOL.
I saw this effect about 2 years ago but struggled back then to find a uk supply, web sites always said 'coming soon'. So i satrted watching the alsa videos and they just poured the stuff on and it worked. Good thought it must be kind of cheap if you are pouring it. Then i got the 1st of the prices over here, £75-£90 per quart (950ml give or take). I could easily use a gallon just experimenting considering that people using the real stuff seemed to struggle, it was just too expensive for me. Then i was looking through some airbrush forums and found someone had made a diy solution. Their results where good but not spectacular like the alsa and lectra galleries. So i shevled that idea next to many others.
Then i read the post with barknmads use of the diy stuff and it looked fantastic compared to others so i thought i would give it a try. I turned out to be a little more complicated than it sounds trying to get different effects and also the low ambient temp in Scotland did not seem to help as the crystal growth is really temp sensative.
I did some test panels and showed them to some mates, they were impressed and one asked if i would do his bike as it was needing painted. He did specify that the colours where not to be bright or highly contrasting, so i used the black,graphite and silver. Luckily he loves it and i get some dosh for playing with paint :D.
Shift, i have used only 4 coats of clear, the first 2 was enough for good depth and the last 2 were just flattening coats. This way i know there is enough material for me to wet sand and buff to a glass finish. If i really have to i will knock it back with some 800g and shoot 2 more coats of clear.

cammy9r
09-03-2007, 10:39 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/73940768239430.jpg



http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/73940768248908.jpg



http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/73940768210422.jpg





http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/73940768192113.jpg



These are pics of my lid i did the other day. I used the crystal stuff on the back and front and tied the trest of the paint with the effect on the bike. But i am finding it difficult to take pick of the finish. I used 200ml of mixed 2K clear through a HVLP gun. This was plenty to get the finish you see in the pics.

Gix11
10-03-2007, 12:19 PM
Mate, you do a bloody great job every time!

pommie
11-03-2007, 06:37 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/491861605160898.JPG


here is my effort i repainted the bike last week at the ne tail unit was not a perfect match

pommie
11-03-2007, 06:39 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/491861605133216.jpg


and here is the full bike, looks shit hot in the flesh

Gix11
11-03-2007, 10:14 PM
Bring it to the Fools Run mate. I'd like to see it.

cammy9r
12-03-2007, 07:12 AM
that looks awesome pommie, great job.
How did you mix up the urea solution?

336LJ
10-04-2007, 05:54 PM
hmmmm .. as soon as I mentioned the words UREA, crystals, and ammonia.. the sales assistant at the local hardware store started getting VERY suss on me hahahahaha.. probably didnt help that i made jokes about deisel.. ah well f*ck em. Im giving this a go

ebinmoothedam
04-07-2007, 07:59 PM
this is really nice
but i am still confused with the way to how to do it !

jakam04
04-07-2007, 08:18 PM
quote:Originally posted by ebinmoothedam

this is really nice
but i am still confused with the way to how to do it !


Pommie has done excellent work with his paint work.

Im sure he would be willing to share his skills with you, but I will give you a helpful hint for someone who may want to stay and chat. Go to the introduction threads and introduce yourself properly, otherwise you may not get as warm a welcome as you might have liked.

Jarrod

catchmeifyoucan
04-07-2007, 09:46 PM
^^^^^^^^^what he said^^^^^^^^^^
the crystal solution is pretty easy to make, i found the hardest part was to find the right amount of paint and the right consistancy to spray over the crystals...
^^^which one confuses you??

HueyonaBlade
04-07-2007, 09:47 PM
quote:Originally posted by Gix11

Mate, you do a bloody great job every time!

Just as Si says, you have an amazing talent M8 beautiful finish;)

pommie
04-07-2007, 10:05 PM
http://www.streetfighters.com.au/forum/upload/269108907138779.JPG


there is not much more i can say to what cammy9r has explained, apart from the main thing for me is the temp, a spray booth would be good to control that, cos if you have humidity the crystal will never form.
as with this part if you spray the bits at different time you get a different effect

Booster
04-07-2007, 11:37 PM
I wonder if you could direct the growth of the crystals,like with a warm air stream or iron dust and a magnet , wild guesses here but you see what i'm getting at ??
Or a wax pattern for a background or script ?

Gix11
05-07-2007, 02:26 PM
Woah Greg, you're on to something there I reckon.

saiken
08-07-2007, 08:42 PM
that is awesome! id love to see someone paint the effect on.

Genericly
21-12-2007, 05:16 PM
*EDIT*

So it turns out Urea is not available on the open market since 9/11 (at least here in the states) and it's high nitrogen/bomb potential. The guy at home depot pointed me towards Ammonia Nitrate, and I eventually wound up with 35-0-0 (http://www.garden-services.com/ferttype.html) I'm curious if this will work out the same? I forgot the ammonia at work, so I'll have to wait till tomorrow night to give it a go anyways, no worries, I'll practice laying base coats.

My friend runs a landscaping company, maybe I could get Urea from him?

What kind of paint do you use? After talking in depth with the guy at the hardware store i was walking away with a cap/handle for spray paint, a spray paint primer, a flat black and a clear coat all in a spray can, as well as some accessories - should i have bought the mixture in a can and then gone about it with an airbrush, or whatever, my neighbors own a shop and I might be able to use theirs.

Cheers

cammy9r
23-12-2007, 06:50 PM
hi, I'm sure the ammonium nitrate will work it just seems to have a lesser amount of nitrogen, just as long as it has no other ingredients and kind of looks like small clearish white granules. I tried a few things before i could get the urea but nothing worked well if at all.
As for paint i use standard solvent based auto paint, mixed and sprayed through a gun and spray [rattle] cans of celly or acrylic. It will take a lot of spray can clear in many coats to build enough to cover the tactlie finish of the crystal efect.
I wouldn't use water based paints for the contrast coat [usually the black coat] as it will most likely wash off with the crystal stuff.

oldskool
26-12-2007, 08:46 PM
Mate you are the SHIT ...Top work mate Top work AAA+++

revken
01-08-2009, 11:19 PM
does this stuff need to be done with 2pack or will acrylics work ok? Ive never used 2pack before

barknmad
03-08-2009, 01:38 PM
The solution is just a "mask". It doesn't usually react with anything (as long as it's not a water based paint). The thicker your top "contrast coat" is, the harder you need to work to get it off. I've used acrylic with no problems (inc. rattle cans).

Good Luck 8^).

revken
03-08-2009, 03:30 PM
excellent, I like the sound of that. thanks

Pornfinder
06-11-2009, 09:15 AM
was going to ask if rattle cans would work, no spray gear, but barkin has just snswered that one. going to try it on the new build. looks shit hot.