Frame Builders??

Shouldn't have a problem getting one of'em down here.
I mean, even the poms can over-engineer anything, so why can't we?. And they are basically bent up aluminium tubing, welded together, not that bloody difficult, even a machine can weld that up, perfectly. (check out the robotics in Japan if you want to verify)

They didn't possibly choose such large tubes to overcome certain innate design flaws did they? (I'll let you figure out what they might be.)

But even I will admit that their swing-arm is the best looking I have ever seen by far, that I would be prepared to pay a premium for[], not the rest though.

I don't object to you knocking anything Australian, even Kiwi (self righteous South Pacific Poms at best). But when you can't even be bothered checking the facts? Yeah good one mate.

Take the time to check out what Terry Prince can do for you?

Frames can go 'out of style', this doesn't necessitate that the frame is not still up to scratch. Vincent frames were built in the 40's/50's, but the basic design could still be put to good use today, with today's power plants.

I am not a great frame engineer myself, and when time comes I will be enlisting the aid of a friend who has done all this before. This guy even casts his own V-twin cylinders and heads these days. And he knows more than the lot of us put together. It will probably be along the lines of the TPV frame on the Classic Cycle site.

If you want to be snide, at least get it right. I never said anything about ads, or that anyone was manufacturing them at the moment. I think in fact, that I was talking about getting them 'made to order' (I can explain this expression if you need).

MarkC


Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, anything more than that can wait for a group piss up.

quote:Originally posted by Spondonash

I honestly didn't notice much slagging off of Australian engineering, we Aussies are the best at everything, we are always telling ourselves
I think you have got the flag wrapped a little too tightly around your neck there chalk
This really isn't a pissing contest, Spondon make probably the best frames in the world, when you show me the alternative, wherever it is from, I will admit it.
You really don't have to tell me that we do everything better here, the media tell me that but just admit what is so obvious, that's all I say

I did show you alternatives, what about MacIntosh? Terry Prince?

Whether they are the best or not is highly subjective.
Some people will appreciate the pure funcionality/minimalism of the Prince example, or even the MacIntosh. To them (and me) that is the best frame in the world.
Others who fancy Triumph motors consider the Norton Featherbed frame to have been the best ever.
Others will appreciate a frame that is attractive to look at, as well as being functional, ala spondon, to them that is the best, or should that be fairest?

And since I hang myself by the Australian flag so much, why don't I have Australian citizenship, been here 20 years.

I know it's not a pissing contest,
but some of your comments do sound like you're in a pithy contest[)]


MarkC

[Spondonash]

I think I see the crux of the problem here, you seem to be maybe living in the past a little, no offence meant by that. You can't honestly see the Terry Prince or McIntosh frames as a viable alternative to a Spondon ? They are frames but the similarity ends there to be honest. That is not a put down of those frames but would you really expect someone who was going to build a Spondon streetfighter to say "no bugger it I will get a locally made Prince frame even though it is nothing like what I want" ?
What I think is happening here is that you are making it into a fight between countries when in actual fact it isn't at all, if there was a real alternative with the history, quality etc of a Spondon available in this country I am sure people would buy them. I happen to be a huge Spondon fan because I have been to the factory and seen them being made and appreciate the quality. Remember the exchange rate has made them the price they are here not Spondon.
As an aside the latest Vee Two bike used a Japanese Over frame, the earlier Alchemy's used their own steel frame, not sure if they weren't able to build a good enough alloy frame
The Britten of course had a frame to some extent but was nothing more than a headstock fixed to the top of the engine. I met John Britten and admire him greatly.
You talk alot about clssic style frames and I think that is where the problem is, you obviously think the older frames are better judging by your comment that a Vincent frame could hold it's own nowadays (great British engineering aside I think it would have trouble )
I 'm not sure what a pithy contest is but I think we should keep it going, there is no need to make it personal, I think these discussions are important, and good fun.

quote:Originally posted by chalk10
I did show you alternatives, what about MacIntosh? Terry Prince?

Whether they are the best or not is highly subjective.
Some people will appreciate the pure funcionality/minimalism of the Prince example, or even the MacIntosh. To them (and me) that is the best frame in the world.
Others who fancy Triumph motors consider the Norton Featherbed frame to have been the best ever.
Others will appreciate a frame that is attractive to look at, as well as being functional, ala spondon, to them that is the best, or should that be fairest?

And since I hang myself by the Australian flag so much, why don't I have Australian citizenship, been here 20 years.

I know it's not a pissing contest,
but some of your comments do sound like you're in a pithy contest[)]


MarkC

[Spondonash]

My Spondon handles like it is on rails, the frame itself weighs about half that of the standard Triumph and is far prettier. On the Isle of Man when I thought I was doing pretty well a beautiful Spondon came past me on the inside as if I was standing still, they are not just for looks believe me. They have been building frames since about the 60's/70's, everything from drag bikes to GP bikes to street bikes, they know their stuff and that is what you are paying for.

quote:Originally posted by J7-11

Function over form? With function comes form! Well that's what I think anyway!

Just out of interest how do Spondons/Harris/Martek/etc etc frames actually perform? How much lighter than say a 750 slingshot frame are they? Rigidity? Do they actually handle? If you changed the frame and frame only, how much performance cornering wise do you gain (or lose!)???

Sorry since I've never ridden one, and only heard about them in magazines and web forums, I've got no idea!

[Spondonash]

When I was talking to Dave about a frame he said something like $2000 for just a frame in steel. Not too bad I reckon.

quote:Originally posted by J7-11

I know someone that wants a trellis frame for his Hunda 600RR... how much are we talking?

[quote]Originally posted by Spondonash
I 'm not sure what a pithy contest is but I think we should keep it going, there is no need to make it personal, I think these discussions are important, and good fun.[quote]

Finally something we can agree on.

I do seriously dispute the point that 'older' style frames are any weaker than the Spondon's though. But the problem here is actually demonstrating it, otherwise we'll just end up repeating claims. We'll have to keep working on it though.

I admit that I tend to 'hark back' to earlier days, but I got my license in the late 70's, in NZ (the aussies can explain NZ being 2 hours ahead and 10 years behind). Damn I was born in the old days.
I was lucky enough to ride some excellent early machinery such as Tritons, Vincents, cafe specials etc, and there is still a LOT to be said for them.
Plus the owners tended to be the sort of guys who insisted that you learn the fundamentals and history of bike building, and if you couldn't wrench your own bike you shouldn't be riding it.
Don't forget that what we ride today evolved from what they rode yesterday.
Met Britten, well saw him, as well as Roger Freeth (the guy who rode the MacIntosh's to victory at Bathurst, fastest maths professor you'll ever have met).

The 'basic design' of the Vincent frame is essentially a Single Spar frame design, such as the Moko's etc. And they work just as well as the Spondon (a point we are yet to agree on though). Indeed I'll check with some people who know about what influences resulted in the current Spondon design, good chance that it will hark back to earlier designs.



MarkC

[Spondonash]

I don't think it will be too hard showing that the newer (Spondon) frames are considerably stronger than the older style frames. Alloy frames might to some extent be a fashion item but primarily they are used as they are strong and light. You only have to look at the way the Ducati MotoGP bikes tie themselves in knots to see that a steel trellis design just doesn't have what it takes to handle the sort of power the bike develops.
You don't in all seriousness believe that an old steel frame is as good as a modern alloy frame ? I have been trying to think what frame from days of yore might have influenced the modern Spondon frame but there just aren't any, they were one of the first to use the alloy beam and that seems to be the way to go strength wise.
Don't get me wrong here, I love most of the "special" frames, I have built Tritons and built a very nice Rickman T160 Trident as well as a few less special bikes over the years.
All frames have there limits and it is fair to say that a steel frame will reach it's limit sometime before an alloy one, weight for weight.
If you can find someone that can build a comparable frame here I would consider one but your proof they exist seems to hang on Terry Princes spine frame etc which as I already said are not a viable alternative to a Spondon.
Also as I have said our chronic exchange rate artificially inflates the prices of these frames and doesn't as you stated actually make them more affordable, we get very few pounds for our Pacific Peso nowadays
Is someone else going to wade in here or is it up to us ?

quote:Originally posted by Spondonash

I don't think it will be too hard showing that the newer (Spondon) frames are considerably stronger than the older style frames. Alloy frames might to some extent be a fashion item but primarily they are used as they are strong and light. You only have to look at the way the Ducati MotoGP bikes tie themselves in knots to see that a steel trellis design just doesn't have what it takes to handle the sort of power the bike develops.
You don't in all seriousness believe that an old steel frame is as good as a modern alloy frame ? I have been trying to think what frame from days of yore might have influenced the modern Spondon frame but there just aren't any, they were one of the first to use the alloy beam and that seems to be the way to go strength wise.
Don't get me wrong here, I love most of the "special" frames, I have built Tritons and built a very nice Rickman T160 Trident as well as a few less special bikes over the years.
All frames have there limits and it is fair to say that a steel frame will reach it's limit sometime before an alloy one, weight for weight.
If you can find someone that can build a comparable frame here I would consider one but your proof they exist seems to hang on Terry Princes spine frame etc which as I already said are not a viable alternative to a Spondon.
Also as I have said our chronic exchange rate artificially inflates the prices of these frames and doesn't as you stated actually make them more affordable, we get very few pounds for our Pacific Peso nowadays
Is someone else going to wade in here or is it up to us ?

Weight for weight, alloys are stronger than steel, and Magnesium even stronger.
But the old steel frames don't have to be made from steel. They can be constructed using the same materials as Spondon use, although that might require additional bracing/support. Many have been built using light-weight tubing (I'll find some reference info for this one).
Also the Spondon is much bulkier and more heavily braced, by dint of the design, than the Prince. When did they start using alloy beams?
It is only 'better' than the Prince design due to the looks of the unit, which is highly subjective.

Steel does have two major advantage over alloys, cost and 'ease of use'. And cost was one of the considerations in this thread.
Fair enough that a steel frame will reach it's boundaries before an equivalent design alloy unit, but it is yet to be established that steel frames have actually reached that point. The GP examle is not by itself proof of this. The problems there could have been due to bad design, bad construction, excessive weight trimming, suspension issues etc.
The design itself will always have a serious impact on the effectiveness of the material used.
Alloys will tear more readily than steel for example.
In many ways Glass is stronger than all other materials when it comes to building bubble hulls for subs. Under pressure Glass will compress (knit?) together creating a uniform surface, whereas other materials will crumple from a weak point.
Ceramics are now used to line Cylinder walls, but you wouldn't use ceramics for frames (at this stage anyway, who knows what tomorrow may bring).

Nice bikes by the sound of it, the Brits and specials[^], but the power output from the English motors, and their light weight, really isn't enough to push a good basic frame. But jeez they're fun on the right twisties.

If the exchange rate is so bad how come imports have been getting cheaper? I thought that the Aus$/Pound had stayed relatively steady over that last few years, and it was actually taxes/duties/etc that were the problem? but I could be wrong on that one.

And yeah, where are the others[^]


MarkC

[speeddemon]

Just to create more discussion - I heard of someone doing trellis chromoly frames in AUS somewher - any ideas where?

On another note I know I used Spondon as an example in my initial question & used 'nice' because to tell you the truth I would rather have something different like a trellis frame on my bandit, cause lets say my bike is coated in grime un muk (good thing for matt black!) and is actually riden hard & often (no time to clean um) unlike most of the show ponies spouting spondons. But I wouldnt knock one back if I found one floating around somewhere, but my frame would still end up powder coated black and I'm sure most wouldnt give it a second glance if there was no chrome bits.

So what are we all trying to build then - a show bike or a dont fuck with me bike? the latter for me thanks.

[Tony Nitrous]

QUOTE: a show bike or a dont fuck with me bike?

I see no reason why a well build Spondon can't do both ?

Spondon frame, Busa motor, and some good running gear?
Kick arse and turn heads [8D]

quote:Originally posted by speeddemon

Just to create more discussion - I heard of someone doing trellis chromoly frames in AUS somewher - any ideas where?

On another note I know I used Spondon as an example in my initial question & used 'nice' because to tell you the truth I would rather have something different like a trellis frame on my bandit, cause lets say my bike is coated in grime un muk (good thing for matt black!) and is actually riden hard & often (no time to clean um) unlike most of the show ponies spouting spondons. But I wouldnt knock one back if I found one floating around somewhere, but my frame would still end up powder coated black and I'm sure most wouldnt give it a second glance if there was no chrome bits.

So what are we all trying to build then - a show bike or a dont fuck with me bike? the latter for me thanks.

Sounds like you might even go for a minimalist frame, If you can't see it you don't need to clean it

A name that a m8 been mentioned is

Laurie Alderton
2/10 Long St,
Smithfeild NSW 2164
02 9609 2889

He is listed on the Guzzi site and on the MotorCycle Disposals site for frame repairs and wheel straightening, but he used to build frames, and had a good reputation.

He may well at least be able to point you in the right direction.


MarkC

[speeddemon]

I'm sure if I had a spondon it would do both nicely, and I'm sure if I could afford the frame the other bits I would have would make it a better bike, but we are back to $$$$$$$$$ are we not?

Minimal would be 'nice'- again. But...........

Just picked up a slabby 750 from for bugger all - so I guess like most mortals in this world I'll brace it, paint it (matt black of course) and ride it.

[ozkat]

im proberly going to get way in over my head here, making comments on things i know very little about. BUT. i think the Spondon and Harris frames are the best looking frames ive ever seen, im sure they are over enginered... so what? im sure only the top 1% or riders will push these type of frames to the limit... so what? what i really am sure about is the price tag of the frames. they really are over priced for the average punter. im a whisker off 40 years old ,a wife 3 kids and a still owe about 50K on my house, so its way out of my price range. other than looking really good and being light weight, the average or even above average rider really couldnt tell the difference between a spondon/harris and say a standard GSXR/CBR/R1 etc in handling. but belive me if i won lotto id have one asap. what are differences of these frames other than really good looks and light weight compared to factory frames? im pretty sure you can tailor rake and trail to suit yourself. i think the main reason these type of frames arnt made here is because we have such a small market. however if you make something as good or better than comparable items avalible they will sell worldwide. we have a crap dollar for dollar exchange rate here. doesnt that means other countries should be able to buy our frames cheaper? we can make frames and other bits and peices as good or better than what Spondon etc can do. why cant someone make a frame and swingarm to suit for example: 91 GSXR forks,tank,wheels,engine etc? or the same in FZR 1000? (wouldnt that be nice? ). what about a frame made in big tube oval alloy and a big tube oval alloy underbraced swingarm to suit 88 GSXR750 (throw your frame away and just bolt all your original stuff on) maybe im way off but id look at buying one. like i said i proberly have no idea whats involved in stuff like this but i know what i like . cheers Ozkat. (ps ash id love to have a look at your bike someday im only a 40 min ride away, if you dont mind a FZR in your driveway)

[Spondonash]

Ozkat,

You make some good points. As I have said Spondon frames (for example) aren't overly expensive in the UK where they originate but because of our crappy dollar (£1 = $2.50)they end up seeming very expensive. A basic frame kit works out to around $8,500 before shipping etc but it isn't the fault of Spondon or the others.
It is possible something of a similar quality COULD be built here but as I have never seen any evidence it remains a possibility at best. If we could build a comparable product it would indeed be a bargain for overseas buyers but it would need to build a reputation which takes many years.
I doubt an average rider could tell the difference between a Spondon and an 04 Fairyblade or R1 BUT that isn't what they are about. I think a frame to suit all standard parts is ideal for most people, Spondon have been building them for a few years now to suit Bandits, Z9's Katana's etc.
You are more than welcome to have a look at mine but can you wait until I have finished the changes I have planned ? Because of my back I haven't ridden for sometime now and am taking the opportunity to update the Spondon. Keep in touch.

BIMOTA.

[Spondonash]

Ah OK, a man of few words

quote:Originally posted by mad mundy

BIMOTA.

G'DAY SPEEDDEMON. DUDLEY'S PERFORMANCE M.C (Mick doohan's ex-race engineer/mechanic from old skool days.} I THINK IT'S UNIT 7/9 DONALDSON AVENUE NORTH WYONG. NSW.(central coast bro).THE MAN DOES HIGH QUALITY WORK 4 A REALISTIC PRICE. HE'S MAINLY DOIN HARLEYS THESE DAYS(semi-retired i guess) BUT GET HIM EXCITED ABOUT BIG H.P JAP BIKES AND HE'LL BUILD YOU ANYTHING. LEARN FROM THIS MAN,HE IS VERY INTERESTING AND HAS ALOT OF TIME 4 PEOPLE WHO SHARE HIS PASSION

G'DAY SPEEDDEMON. DUDLEY'S PERFORMANCE M.C (Mick doohan's ex-race engineer/mechanic from old skool days.} I THINK IT'S UNIT 7/9 DONALDSON AVENUE NORTH WYONG. NSW.(central coast bro).THE MAN DOES HIGH QUALITY WORK 4 A REALISTIC PRICE. HE'S MAINLY DOIN HARLEYS THESE DAYS(semi-retired i guess) BUT GET HIM EXCITED ABOUT BIG H.P JAP BIKES AND HE'LL BUILD YOU ANYTHING. LEARN FROM THIS MAN,HE IS VERY INTERESTING AND HAS ALOT OF TIME 4 PEOPLE WHO SHARE HIS PASSION