Frame Builders?? [Archive] - Aussie Streetfighters

31-12-2004, 04:51 PM

Know what you mean old chap, had alook at the spondons eeeeek$
Same with Harris and Moko (10,000 just for bare frame, but God they make a top fighter). Is Moto Martin still going do you know?

Ken MacIntosh (NZ) used to manufacture frames, anyone know if he's still around? He built some pretty tasty GSX11 based frame kits in the 80's, Bathurst winners etc.

There used to be a crew in Vic that could build to order, race bikes etc. They were known as the Hallam Bros(?)or some such like. If memory serves me correctly they built a very quick Harley based GP bike at one stage (I know, I know, that's impossible, but they are Aussie engineers)

Some of the 'Custom' specialists in Melbourne/Sydney/NSW north coast should be able to do the job or point you in the right direction.

I should imagine that the Spondon frame would be more difficult to replicate than the simpler chrome molloy tubing frames (ala MacIntosh/Harris)

Egli style frames (short top spine, with down tubes for a 'stressed member' engine mount, would actually be very easy for most engineering shops to manufacture to your specs.

PS our current exchange rate actually makes importing quite cheap, but they still charge OTFT prices.

Tony Nitrous

01-01-2005, 05:47 PM

There is/was a finished Spondon GSX1260, 147bhp V&M motor, USD forks, Gull arm, Taylor leads, Ohlins shock, Dyna coils, Flatslides, Stunning paint, polished alloy, PMF discs, Cammotion cams etc etc etc..... for sale in the UK.
Cost £12,000 / $30,000 to build,
Was for sale at £4575 / $11,437
Now at £4100 / $10,250.

Makes buying a frame look a bit expensive !!

I have been told importing such a toy is a hard work, if not impossible, but at that price it would be worth getting someone in the UK to break it and import it as a frame & parts 9if this is possible)

You can see similar prices on Harris / Martek / Steelheart / even a JMC (the Swingarm people) framed bike.

Just an idea.

02-01-2005, 10:09 AM

Bringing a frame unit/kit into the country shouldn't be that much of an issue in most states yet, although NSW is cracking down on things like aftermarket exhausts.

It used to be the case in Aus that all you needed was an engineers certificate (the frame manufacturer will be able to provide the necessary info) for the frame, and I don't think it has changed much. It was easier if you changed just the frame on a registered bike, but I know of a number of people who built their own frames in the 80's/90's and were able to register completely new bikes without too many problems.

You may prefer to 'pre-register' it in another state if Qld has restricted the laws up there. Once you get rego in one state it's often much easier to get rego in 'retricted states'(one of the benefits of a federal/state system). Let me know if you want the local regs checked.

The deal sounds too good to let go of too easily.[:p]

But conversely, perhaps we could get a group together and commission a specific frame type from a local engineering firm, I'd be interested in that. I do like the Egli style single spar frames, and they shouldn't be that much as a commissioned batch run of say half a dozen frames.

MarkC

Tony Nitrous

02-01-2005, 05:49 PM

QUOTE: But conversely, perhaps we could get a group together and commission a specific frame type from a local engineering firm, I'd be interested in that. I do like the Egli style single spar frames, and they shouldn't be that much as a commissioned batch run of say half a dozen frames.

Spondon frames are Art!
Harris are up there too,
Martek were in the same league.

Yes, a local engineering frame could knock out a few frames, but I dont think we are talking the same league here!
Personal opinion only... I will buy my frame from a Frame maker not a guy who welds JCB buckets.

Im not bad-mouthing ozzie workmanship, I would love to see a JMC, Harris, Martek, Spondon, Steelheart down under, I just havent found one yet.

I would imagine the best folk to look to would be the guys who build the Harley / Chop / Trike frames. They have all the right kit and talk the right talk.

02-01-2005, 07:13 PM

quote:Originally posted by Tony Nitrous

QUOTE: But conversely, perhaps we could get a group together and commission a specific frame type from a local engineering firm, I'd be interested in that. I do like the Egli style single spar frames, and they shouldn't be that much as a commissioned batch run of say half a dozen frames.

Spondon frames are Art!
Harris are up there too,
Martek were in the same league.

Yes, a local engineering frame could knock out a few frames, but I dont think we are talking the same league here!
Personal opinion only... I will buy my frame from a Frame maker not a guy who welds JCB buckets.

Im not bad-mouthing ozzie workmanship, I would love to see a JMC, Harris, Martek, Spondon, Steelheart down under, I just havent found one yet.

I would imagine the best folk to look to would be the guys who build the Harley / Chop / Trike frames. They have all the right kit and talk the right talk.

The basic principles really aren't that difficult, plus we have the advantage of being able to reference specs off existing frames.

While you would want competent tradesmen doing the welding etc, there is a wealth of high quality tradesmen in this country. And half, or more, of the job is in setting up the jig.

The crew that built the V-twins over in WA built their own chassis I believe, Macintosh (just as good as the Europeans) in NZ, Britten in NZ built his own frames. There is more than enough talent in Australia to replicate anything that the Europeans do. Oh and Phil Irving, an Australian, taught one of England's greatest bike companies, HRD Vincent, a thing or two.

The ones that I saw were actually crafted at the workshops of ANU and the RAAF, and were top quality. I think you are giving Spondon et al a little too much praise, they are good, very good in fact, but we can easily do the same.

And let's face it, what we want, essentially, is function over form, yet the European manufacturers price their stuff as if they were Parisian Fashion whores, ie a bloody fancy rip off. $10,000 for a basic frame, come on.

But of course when it comes down to it, everybody goes their own way when building street fighters, including frames.

Hope you get what you want anyway:)

MarkC

J7-11

02-01-2005, 08:12 PM

Function over form? With function comes form! Well that's what I think anyway!

Just out of interest how do Spondons/Harris/Martek/etc etc frames actually perform? How much lighter than say a 750 slingshot frame are they? Rigidity? Do they actually handle? If you changed the frame and frame only, how much performance cornering wise do you gain (or lose!)???

Sorry since I've never ridden one, and only heard about them in magazines and web forums, I've got no idea!

02-01-2005, 08:53 PM

quote:Originally posted by J7-11

Function over form? With function comes form! Well that's what I think anyway!

Just out of interest how do Spondons/Harris/Martek/etc etc frames actually perform? How much lighter than say a 750 slingshot frame are they? Rigidity? Do they actually handle? If you changed the frame and frame only, how much performance cornering wise do you gain (or lose!)???

Sorry since I've never ridden one, and only heard about them in magazines and web forums, I've got no idea!

Wot about opera chicks then?
They can sing (function), but jesus christ mate, what ugly form:D.

Rough guide: (concerning road bikes)
During the late 70's/80's the after market frame industry was primarily known for the rigidity of their frames. The standard Japanese offering was a shocker, rubber banded 'widow makers'. And the European frames (Norton etc) were never able to handle the power of the big jap 4's. Even the guys running European bikes were after 'better than factory' frames.
Manufacturers such as Harris/Egli/Bimota et al, offered a frame which was capable of keeping the front and rear wheels in line with the engine. They also offered such 'exotica' as adjustable steering head angles, adjustable swing arms, compact sizes, single sided swing arms, racer styling, light weight etc.
As the Japanese offerings improved during the late 80's and 90's the after market manufacturers had to offer more than just a rigid frame, which the Jap and Euro manufacturers were supplying stock, and some moved into advanced developments and others moved more into 'crafting' beautiful frames.
The improvements in Japanese handling owe an awful lot to the development work doen by these after market manufacturers

Any more and you'll have to find someone who knows what they are talking about.

You do gain some performance cornering wise, depending on year of donor bike, due to the fact that the bikes don't tend to 'flex' through corners, thereby allowing the rider to push the bike harder, with more confidence.
Actual ground clearance is determined by the particular frame/suspension combinations on each bike.

MarkC

Tony Nitrous

03-01-2005, 09:34 AM

I would be suprised to see any aftermarket frame better an 05 Jap sports bike, if it did it would be wasted on 99.9% of riders anyway.

I think the term 'crafting' beautiful frames.
is nearer to the point.

If anyone can knock out "Spondon replica's" (Martek did,and went broke doing it!) for less than the Standard $10,000 price (thats with tank, swinger and Ohlins isn't it ?) to the same standard as Spondon, they should be making a lot of money.

As 1 member on this list owns 3 spondons and a Harris im suprised he has not joined in ?
He is either biting his lip or not seen these posts LOL :D

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 12:59 PM

Yes it is time to enter the fray Tony :D
A basic Spondon frame kit costs somewhere in the region of £4000 which given our shocking exchange rate does equate to around $10000 for a frame, swinging arm, Ohlins shock, rearsets, all brackets, headlight brackets, beautiful hand made alloy tank. You really do get what you pay for.
To answer a few questions or statements first, the mob making Vtwins in WA have their frames made by Over in Japan and were designed by an Englishman, The Britten didn't have a frame.
I really don't think it is possible to give Spondon too much praise to be honest. I have yet to see a frame from anywhere in the world to get close to the quality except maybe Over from Japan.
By the way our current exchange rate makes importing VERY expensive not cheap that is why the frame kits seem that expensive, they are quite affordable in the UK.
The engineers at Spondon can do welds that would put a machine to shame, they are craftsmen. I might start to believe someone here could do a similar job if I could see some proof.
I did see a frame built by someone in Sydney (?) which was around $5000, a very basic steel lattice type frame, just a frame nothing else.
Time to put down the rose tinted glasses and accept the reality I'm afraid until I see actual metal in front of me not just some guys saying we should be able to. :D

03-01-2005, 01:05 PM

quote:Originally posted by Tony Nitrous

I would be suprised to see any aftermarket frame better an 05 Jap sports bike, if it did it would be wasted on 99.9% of riders anyway.

I think the term 'crafting' beautiful frames.
is nearer to the point.

If anyone can knock out "Spondon replica's" (Martek did,and went broke doing it!) for less than the Standard $10,000 price (thats with tank, swinger and Ohlins isn't it ?) to the same standard as Spondon, they should be making a lot of money.

As 1 member on this list owns 3 spondons and a Harris im suprised he has not joined in ?
He is either biting his lip or not seen these posts LOL :D

I did say that the Japanese offerings were just as good in the 90's.

I also did say that the spondons would be more difficult than the much cheaper Egli single spar style designs, which are my stated preference. And I have only been talking about basic frames (including swing-arm, no tank or shock)

Martek also had to deal with commercial issues which wouldn't be an issue in this case.
They are there for profits, we ain't.
They have to maintain a business entity, ie shopfront, staff, factory, stock on hand, machinery etc etc etc. We don't, we order just what we have paid-up buyers for.
Spondon/Martek had to pay for their own development, have certain copyright considerations, etc. As private builders we don't have any of these problems, we can create a jig off a current example for next to nothing.

The chrome molly frames that were constructed in Canberra in the 80's actually cost their builders a fraction of what the commercial builders were asking. Admittedly they had access to great workshops, did the work themselves etc. But there is no reason why we couldn't keep prices down by doing as much of the work ourselves/through friends.

It was suggested as a way of bypassing a lot of the 'import problems' that you were concerned about.

MarkC

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 02:35 PM

Yes I think it is perfectly possible to build a basic steel frame that would accept a multitude of swinging arms, off the shelf petrol tanks etc but they would hardly be in the Spondon class which is fine if all you want is a "different" frame. No-one nowadays buys a Spondon frame for an R1 or a Fairyblade and expects it to be a better handling bike than the original, they buy the Spondon for the reason I did, because it's different and a piece of mobile art which is something your run of the mill Jap bike will never be.
I know of a bloke down here in Brisbane that is more than willing to build me a frame, steel, trellis ala Ducati, he has done them before and knows what he is doing but if/when I get him to do it I wont be expecting a Spondon or Harris but it will be a one off,
Maybe we should see how many people would be interested and get him doing a couple ?

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 02:36 PM

Spondons are nice !!!! Now there is an understatement if ever I saw one :D

quote:Originally posted by speeddemon

Spondons are nice but there must be someone in this country who can build up a similar frame or swingarm for less $ given our crap exchange rate? Anyone know who might do it (pref in Sydney)?

J7-11

03-01-2005, 04:00 PM

I know someone that wants a trellis frame for his Hunda 600RR... how much are we talking?

03-01-2005, 04:26 PM

quote:Originally posted by Spondonash

Yes it is time to enter the fray Tony :D
A basic Spondon frame kit costs somewhere in the region of £4000 which given our shocking exchange rate does equate to around $10000 for a frame, swinging arm, Ohlins shock, rearsets, all brackets, headlight brackets, beautiful hand made alloy tank. You really do get what you pay for.
To answer a few questions or statements first, the mob making Vtwins in WA have their frames made by Over in Japan and were designed by an Englishman, The Britten didn't have a frame.
I really don't think it is possible to give Spondon too much praise to be honest. I have yet to see a frame from anywhere in the world to get close to the quality except maybe Over from Japan.
By the way our current exchange rate makes importing VERY expensive not cheap that is why the frame kits seem that expensive, they are quite affordable in the UK.
The engineers at Spondon can do welds that would put a machine to shame, they are craftsmen. I might start to believe someone here could do a similar job if I could see some proof.
I did see a frame built by someone in Sydney (?) which was around $5000, a very basic steel lattice type frame, just a frame nothing else.
Time to put down the rose tinted glasses and accept the reality I'm afraid until I see actual metal in front of me not just some guys saying we should be able to. :D

Well actually I have seen the evidence in front of me. produced here in Australia.
Also there's a guy in NZ who did his his panel-beating apprenticeship under a guy who trained at the Rolls-Royce factory. Frenchmen now ship early Citroens and the like to him for re-building.
The skills in Australia (&NZ) are just as good as England, some of them were even trained by the best that England has to offer. Perhaps people should take a fresh look at what's available in their own back yard, especially us immigrants.

The Britten did have a frame, it used the engine as a stressed member. Do you think that the front forks, swing-arm, seat etc just floated in mid-air. The frame was minimalist to the extreme, as averse to Spondons, which are 'pretty' to the extreme, but actually provide no better rigidity/handling than a simple steel lattice frame.
According to the Vee-two home page they produce their own frames on site
http://www.veetwo.com.au/mainpages/genericpage.aspx?id=aboutus
you can take the rest of that discussion up with them. You might want to check out all the other superior world-beating engineering they do.
You didn't even address MacIntosh.
And what about Terry Prince? Try and tell him that Spondons are a superior frame to his products.
http://www.classicmotorbikes.com.au/

The Spondons may be 'good on the eye', but from a 'purity of function' perspective they are 'over engineered'. The same functionality can be obtained with a much simpler/efficient design.

What ever you decide to wrap around your own engine is your own decision. As custom builders that's what it is all about. I was just suggesting possible solutions to the original query.

But, personally, I think that you are behaving like ignorant little pricks, slagging off Aus engineering just because it isn't as pretty as you're favoured manufacturer. Especially since you obviously haven't bothered to have a look at what is going on in this country.

Oh and Australian companies/institutions are amongst the world's very best when it comes to metal technologies, ie BHP, CSIRO.

MarkC
PS If I wanted a bike because it looked pretty, I'd buy an Aprillia and shave my legs.

03-01-2005, 04:35 PM

quote:Originally posted by Spondonash

I know of a bloke down here in Brisbane that is more than willing to build me a frame, steel, trellis ala Ducati, he has done them before and knows what he is doing but if/when I get him to do it I wont be expecting a Spondon or Harris but it will be a one off,
Maybe we should see how many people would be interested and get him doing a couple ?

Aaaahhhh.............Isn't this what I was suggesting in the first place?[^]

Tony Nitrous

03-01-2005, 05:37 PM

Im quite sure I know a lot LESS than you guys about frames,

But....

Yes, Egli were top class a few years ago with spine frames, but havent Triumph (1st of the new breed) and Kawasaki (GPZ900) already gone down that road and moved on to better things?

What you get when you buy Spondon frames is more than some welded tubes. You get Spondons name, history, quality and a big chuck of class. Why do Ford Ute's outsell Mazda? They are the bloody same!

If you want a simpler steel frame Harris Magnums are still available.

As Ash will confirm I am a very Un-patriotic Pom, If i never set foot in the UK again thats fine by me, and I am a great fan of most things Australian, but Jeez, your not in the same league for Frames and Streetfighters...

QUOTE. But, personally, I think that you are behaving like ignorant little pricks, slagging off Aus engineering just because it isn't as pretty as you're favoured manufacturer. Especially since you obviously haven't bothered to have a look at what is going on in this country.

Im sorry, I must have missed the ad for High quality, good looking, alloy frame / Swinger / tank / shocker / etc made in OZ for less than $10,000!

I dont object to the price of a Spondon frame kit,
I object to the price of a Busa engine,
They're that bloody good, everyone want one!

I will run for cover now.....

Tony Nitrous

03-01-2005, 05:53 PM

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-12/920443/Martek.jpg

So I will have no problems getting one of these knocked together in this "Land down under" :)

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 06:40 PM

I honestly didn't notice much slagging off of Australian engineering, we Aussies are the best at everything, we are always telling ourselves :D
I think you have got the flag wrapped a little too tightly around your neck there chalk :D:D
This really isn't a pissing contest, Spondon make probably the best frames in the world, when you show me the alternative, wherever it is from, I will admit it.
You really don't have to tell me that we do everything better here, the media tell me that but just admit what is so obvious, that's all I say

03-01-2005, 06:41 PM

Shouldn't have a problem getting one of'em down here.
I mean, even the poms can over-engineer anything, so why can't we?. And they are basically bent up aluminium tubing, welded together, not that bloody difficult, even a machine can weld that up, perfectly. (check out the robotics in Japan if you want to verify)

They didn't possibly choose such large tubes to overcome certain innate design flaws did they? (I'll let you figure out what they might be.)

But even I will admit that their swing-arm is the best looking I have ever seen by far, that I would be prepared to pay a premium for[:p], not the rest though.

I don't object to you knocking anything Australian, even Kiwi (self righteous South Pacific Poms at best:D). But when you can't even be bothered checking the facts? Yeah good one mate.

Take the time to check out what Terry Prince can do for you?

Frames can go 'out of style', this doesn't necessitate that the frame is not still up to scratch. Vincent frames were built in the 40's/50's, but the basic design could still be put to good use today, with today's power plants.

I am not a great frame engineer myself, and when time comes I will be enlisting the aid of a friend who has done all this before. This guy even casts his own V-twin cylinders and heads these days. And he knows more than the lot of us put together. It will probably be along the lines of the TPV frame on the Classic Cycle site.

If you want to be snide, at least get it right. I never said anything about ads, or that anyone was manufacturing them at the moment. I think in fact, that I was talking about getting them 'made to order' (I can explain this expression if you need).

MarkC

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree, anything more than that can wait for a group piss up:D.

03-01-2005, 07:04 PM

quote:Originally posted by Spondonash

I honestly didn't notice much slagging off of Australian engineering, we Aussies are the best at everything, we are always telling ourselves :D
I think you have got the flag wrapped a little too tightly around your neck there chalk :D:D
This really isn't a pissing contest, Spondon make probably the best frames in the world, when you show me the alternative, wherever it is from, I will admit it.
You really don't have to tell me that we do everything better here, the media tell me that but just admit what is so obvious, that's all I say

I did show you alternatives, what about MacIntosh? Terry Prince?

Whether they are the best or not is highly subjective.
Some people will appreciate the pure funcionality/minimalism of the Prince example, or even the MacIntosh. To them (and me) that is the best frame in the world.
Others who fancy Triumph motors consider the Norton Featherbed frame to have been the best ever.
Others will appreciate a frame that is attractive to look at, as well as being functional, ala spondon, to them that is the best, or should that be fairest:D?

And since I hang myself by the Australian flag so much, why don't I have Australian citizenship, been here 20 years.

I know it's not a pissing contest,
but some of your comments do sound like you're in a pithy contest:D[:o)]:D

MarkC

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 08:09 PM

I think I see the crux of the problem here, you seem to be maybe living in the past a little, no offence meant by that. You can't honestly see the Terry Prince or McIntosh frames as a viable alternative to a Spondon ? They are frames but the similarity ends there to be honest. That is not a put down of those frames but would you really expect someone who was going to build a Spondon streetfighter to say "no bugger it I will get a locally made Prince frame even though it is nothing like what I want" ?
What I think is happening here is that you are making it into a fight between countries when in actual fact it isn't at all, if there was a real alternative with the history, quality etc of a Spondon available in this country I am sure people would buy them. I happen to be a huge Spondon fan because I have been to the factory and seen them being made and appreciate the quality. Remember the exchange rate has made them the price they are here not Spondon.
As an aside the latest Vee Two bike used a Japanese Over frame, the earlier Alchemy's used their own steel frame, not sure if they weren't able to build a good enough alloy frame :D
The Britten of course had a frame to some extent but was nothing more than a headstock fixed to the top of the engine. I met John Britten and admire him greatly.
You talk alot about clssic style frames and I think that is where the problem is, you obviously think the older frames are better judging by your comment that a Vincent frame could hold it's own nowadays (great British engineering aside I think it would have trouble :D )
I 'm not sure what a pithy contest is but I think we should keep it going, there is no need to make it personal, I think these discussions are important, and good fun.

quote:Originally posted by chalk10
I did show you alternatives, what about MacIntosh? Terry Prince?

Whether they are the best or not is highly subjective.
Some people will appreciate the pure funcionality/minimalism of the Prince example, or even the MacIntosh. To them (and me) that is the best frame in the world.
Others who fancy Triumph motors consider the Norton Featherbed frame to have been the best ever.
Others will appreciate a frame that is attractive to look at, as well as being functional, ala spondon, to them that is the best, or should that be fairest:D?

And since I hang myself by the Australian flag so much, why don't I have Australian citizenship, been here 20 years.

I know it's not a pissing contest,
but some of your comments do sound like you're in a pithy contest:D[:o)]:D

MarkC

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 08:13 PM

My Spondon handles like it is on rails, the frame itself weighs about half that of the standard Triumph and is far prettier. On the Isle of Man when I thought I was doing pretty well a beautiful Spondon came past me on the inside as if I was standing still, they are not just for looks believe me. They have been building frames since about the 60's/70's, everything from drag bikes to GP bikes to street bikes, they know their stuff and that is what you are paying for.

quote:Originally posted by J7-11

Function over form? With function comes form! Well that's what I think anyway!

Just out of interest how do Spondons/Harris/Martek/etc etc frames actually perform? How much lighter than say a 750 slingshot frame are they? Rigidity? Do they actually handle? If you changed the frame and frame only, how much performance cornering wise do you gain (or lose!)???

Sorry since I've never ridden one, and only heard about them in magazines and web forums, I've got no idea!

Spondonash

03-01-2005, 08:14 PM

When I was talking to Dave about a frame he said something like $2000 for just a frame in steel. Not too bad I reckon.

quote:Originally posted by J7-11

I know someone that wants a trellis frame for his Hunda 600RR... how much are we talking?

03-01-2005, 08:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Spondonash
I 'm not sure what a pithy contest is but I think we should keep it going, there is no need to make it personal, I think these discussions are important, and good fun.[quote]

Finally something we can agree on:D.

I do seriously dispute the point that 'older' style frames are any weaker than the Spondon's though. But the problem here is actually demonstrating it, otherwise we'll just end up repeating claims. We'll have to keep working on it though.;)

I admit that I tend to 'hark back' to earlier days, but I got my license in the late 70's, in NZ (the aussies can explain NZ being 2 hours ahead and 10 years behind:D). Damn I was born in the old days.
I was lucky enough to ride some excellent early machinery such as Tritons, Vincents, cafe specials etc, and there is still a LOT to be said for them.
Plus the owners tended to be the sort of guys who insisted that you learn the fundamentals and history of bike building, and if you couldn't wrench your own bike you shouldn't be riding it.
Don't forget that what we ride today evolved from what they rode yesterday.
Met Britten, well saw him, as well as Roger Freeth (the guy who rode the MacIntosh's to victory at Bathurst, fastest maths professor you'll ever have met).

The 'basic design' of the Vincent frame is essentially a Single Spar frame design, such as the Moko's etc. And they work just as well as the Spondon (a point we are yet to agree on though). Indeed I'll check with some people who know about what influences resulted in the current Spondon design, good chance that it will hark back to earlier designs.

MarkC

Spondonash

04-01-2005, 06:45 AM

I don't think it will be too hard showing that the newer (Spondon) frames are considerably stronger than the older style frames. Alloy frames might to some extent be a fashion item but primarily they are used as they are strong and light. You only have to look at the way the Ducati MotoGP bikes tie themselves in knots to see that a steel trellis design just doesn't have what it takes to handle the sort of power the bike develops.
You don't in all seriousness believe that an old steel frame is as good as a modern alloy frame ? I have been trying to think what frame from days of yore might have influenced the modern Spondon frame but there just aren't any, they were one of the first to use the alloy beam and that seems to be the way to go strength wise.
Don't get me wrong here, I love most of the "special" frames, I have built Tritons and built a very nice Rickman T160 Trident as well as a few less special bikes over the years.
All frames have there limits and it is fair to say that a steel frame will reach it's limit sometime before an alloy one, weight for weight.
If you can find someone that can build a comparable frame here I would consider one but your proof they exist seems to hang on Terry Princes spine frame etc which as I already said are not a viable alternative to a Spondon.
Also as I have said our chronic exchange rate artificially inflates the prices of these frames and doesn't as you stated actually make them more affordable, we get very few pounds for our Pacific Peso nowadays :D
Is someone else going to wade in here or is it up to us ? ;)

04-01-2005, 01:01 PM

quote:Originally posted by Spondonash

I don't think it will be too hard showing that the newer (Spondon) frames are considerably stronger than the older style frames. Alloy frames might to some extent be a fashion item but primarily they are used as they are strong and light. You only have to look at the way the Ducati MotoGP bikes tie themselves in knots to see that a steel trellis design just doesn't have what it takes to handle the sort of power the bike develops.
You don't in all seriousness believe that an old steel frame is as good as a modern alloy frame ? I have been trying to think what frame from days of yore might have influenced the modern Spondon frame but there just aren't any, they were one of the first to use the alloy beam and that seems to be the way to go strength wise.
Don't get me wrong here, I love most of the "special" frames, I have built Tritons and built a very nice Rickman T160 Trident as well as a few less special bikes over the years.
All frames have there limits and it is fair to say that a steel frame will reach it's limit sometime before an alloy one, weight for weight.
If you can find someone that can build a comparable frame here I would consider one but your proof they exist seems to hang on Terry Princes spine frame etc which as I already said are not a viable alternative to a Spondon.
Also as I have said our chronic exchange rate artificially inflates the prices of these frames and doesn't as you stated actually make them more affordable, we get very few pounds for our Pacific Peso nowadays :D
Is someone else going to wade in here or is it up to us ? ;)

Weight for weight, alloys are stronger than steel, and Magnesium even stronger.
But the old steel frames don't have to be made from steel. They can be constructed using the same materials as Spondon use, although that might require additional bracing/support. Many have been built using light-weight tubing (I'll find some reference info for this one).
Also the Spondon is much bulkier and more heavily braced, by dint of the design, than the Prince. When did they start using alloy beams?
It is only 'better' than the Prince design due to the looks of the unit, which is highly subjective.

Steel does have two major advantage over alloys, cost and 'ease of use'. And cost was one of the considerations in this thread.
Fair enough that a steel frame will reach it's boundaries before an equivalent design alloy unit, but it is yet to be established that steel frames have actually reached that point. The GP examle is not by itself proof of this. The problems there could have been due to bad design, bad construction, excessive weight trimming, suspension issues etc.
The design itself will always have a serious impact on the effectiveness of the material used.
Alloys will tear more readily than steel for example.
In many ways Glass is stronger than all other materials when it comes to building bubble hulls for subs. Under pressure Glass will compress (knit?) together creating a uniform surface, whereas other materials will crumple from a weak point.
Ceramics are now used to line Cylinder walls, but you wouldn't use ceramics for frames (at this stage anyway, who knows what tomorrow may bring).

Nice bikes by the sound of it, the Brits and specials[^], but the power output from the English motors, and their light weight, really isn't enough to push a good basic frame. But jeez they're fun on the right twisties:D.

If the exchange rate is so bad how come imports have been getting cheaper? I thought that the Aus$/Pound had stayed relatively steady over that last few years, and it was actually taxes/duties/etc that were the problem? but I could be wrong on that one.

And yeah, where are the others[^]

MarkC

speeddemon

09-01-2005, 03:26 PM

Just to create more discussion - I heard of someone doing trellis chromoly frames in AUS somewher - any ideas where?

On another note I know I used Spondon as an example in my initial question & used 'nice' because to tell you the truth I would rather have something different like a trellis frame on my bandit, cause lets say my bike is coated in grime un muk (good thing for matt black!) and is actually riden hard & often (no time to clean um) unlike most of the show ponies spouting spondons. But I wouldnt knock one back if I found one floating around somewhere, but my frame would still end up powder coated black and I'm sure most wouldnt give it a second glance if there was no chrome bits.

So what are we all trying to build then - a show bike or a dont fuck with me bike? the latter for me thanks.

Tony Nitrous

09-01-2005, 06:30 PM

QUOTE: a show bike or a dont fuck with me bike?

I see no reason why a well build Spondon can't do both ?

Spondon frame, Busa motor, and some good running gear?
Kick arse and turn heads [8D]

09-01-2005, 11:27 PM

quote:Originally posted by speeddemon

Just to create more discussion - I heard of someone doing trellis chromoly frames in AUS somewher - any ideas where?

On another note I know I used Spondon as an example in my initial question & used 'nice' because to tell you the truth I would rather have something different like a trellis frame on my bandit, cause lets say my bike is coated in grime un muk (good thing for matt black!) and is actually riden hard & often (no time to clean um) unlike most of the show ponies spouting spondons. But I wouldnt knock one back if I found one floating around somewhere, but my frame would still end up powder coated black and I'm sure most wouldnt give it a second glance if there was no chrome bits.

So what are we all trying to build then - a show bike or a dont fuck with me bike? the latter for me thanks.

Sounds like you might even go for a minimalist frame, If you can't see it you don't need to clean it:D

A name that a m8 been mentioned is

Laurie Alderton
2/10 Long St,
Smithfeild NSW 2164
02 9609 2889

He is listed on the Guzzi site and on the MotorCycle Disposals site for frame repairs and wheel straightening, but he used to build frames, and had a good reputation.

He may well at least be able to point you in the right direction.

MarkC

speeddemon

10-01-2005, 06:59 PM

I'm sure if I had a spondon it would do both nicely, and I'm sure if I could afford the frame the other bits I would have would make it a better bike, but we are back to $$$$$$$$$ are we not?

Minimal would be 'nice'- again. But...........

Just picked up a slabby 750 from for bugger all - so I guess like most mortals in this world I'll brace it, paint it (matt black of course) and ride it.

ozkat

10-01-2005, 09:27 PM

im proberly going to get way in over my head here, making comments on things i know very little about. BUT. i think the Spondon and Harris frames are the best looking frames ive ever seen, im sure they are over enginered... so what? im sure only the top 1% or riders will push these type of frames to the limit... so what? what i really am sure about is the price tag of the frames. they really are over priced for the average punter. im a whisker off 40 years old ,a wife 3 kids and a still owe about 50K on my house, so its way out of my price range. other than looking really good and being light weight, the average or even above average rider really couldnt tell the difference between a spondon/harris and say a standard GSXR/CBR/R1 etc in handling. but belive me if i won lotto id have one asap. what are differences of these frames other than really good looks and light weight compared to factory frames? im pretty sure you can tailor rake and trail to suit yourself. i think the main reason these type of frames arnt made here is because we have such a small market. however if you make something as good or better than comparable items avalible they will sell worldwide. we have a crap dollar for dollar exchange rate here. doesnt that means other countries should be able to buy our frames cheaper? we can make frames and other bits and peices as good or better than what Spondon etc can do. why cant someone make a frame and swingarm to suit for example: 91 GSXR forks,tank,wheels,engine etc? or the same in FZR 1000? (wouldnt that be nice? :D ). what about a frame made in big tube oval alloy and a big tube oval alloy underbraced swingarm to suit 88 GSXR750 (throw your frame away and just bolt all your original stuff on) maybe im way off but id look at buying one. like i said i proberly have no idea whats involved in stuff like this but i know what i like . cheers Ozkat. (ps ash id love to have a look at your bike someday im only a 40 min ride away, if you dont mind a FZR in your driveway)

Spondonash

12-01-2005, 08:03 PM

Ozkat,

You make some good points. As I have said Spondon frames (for example) aren't overly expensive in the UK where they originate but because of our crappy dollar (£1 = $2.50)they end up seeming very expensive. A basic frame kit works out to around $8,500 before shipping etc but it isn't the fault of Spondon or the others.
It is possible something of a similar quality COULD be built here but as I have never seen any evidence it remains a possibility at best. If we could build a comparable product it would indeed be a bargain for overseas buyers but it would need to build a reputation which takes many years.
I doubt an average rider could tell the difference between a Spondon and an 04 Fairyblade or R1 BUT that isn't what they are about. I think a frame to suit all standard parts is ideal for most people, Spondon have been building them for a few years now to suit Bandits, Z9's Katana's etc.
You are more than welcome to have a look at mine but can you wait until I have finished the changes I have planned ? Because of my back I haven't ridden for sometime now and am taking the opportunity to update the Spondon. Keep in touch.